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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    So I think we can all more or less agree that poison got the shaft as a viable tactical option in 3.5 (and probably 3.0, but I've never played it so I won't comment). The arguments are tired: By the time you can afford the good stuff, everything will save against it anyway. It's expensive for something that has a chance to fail. Half the high-level stuff is immune to it anyway. It's twice as effective against PCs as against NPCs unless your combats routinely last over 10 rounds. There's no real way to increase the save DC. It takes actions to apply it, so you can really only realistically use one per combat more often than not. Yada yada yada, we've heard it all before, and the conclusion's pretty much the same: poison sucks.

    That said, I like poison. It's flavorful, it's different, and I like it... but it's ridiculously hard to make a really poison-heavy character in 3.5 due to the way that poison is handled. So I ask you, what SHOULD poison be like? What changes would make poison a viable tactic without simply toppling the balance to "well, now EVERYONE uses poison, all the time, for everything. Except paladins." or something similar? Should the costs be adjusted? Should the whole primary/secondary ability damage paradigm be reworked? How long should poison be good on the blade? Etc. etc. etc. If you were starting over, what do you think should be changed in order to make poison usable but not universal?
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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Im going to try to answer your thread topic question.

    Poison should be used rarely and carefully. It shouldn't be used all the time, since the crippling effect on attributes is very harsh. The low DCs are just fine the way they are, because most poisons are safe or suck types. Getting 2d6 constitution/strength/dexterity dmg is something that will ruin almost every character. And then again, you might have a secondary effect with the same amount, which in the end will most likely render any character useless.

    Now on the fluff side, poison is evil. It's used by cowards, usurpers, assasins and underdogs. You can use poison to achiev something good, but there's nothing heroic about poisoning the tyrann. Using poison will always make you an outsider, will postmark you as a coward or even make you an outlaw. Poison is deceitful and will never make you any friends. If people know you work with poison, they will fear you, always.

    Well, thats how I answer your question. Happy for any comments or discussions =)

    Cheers,
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    Last edited by Farlion; 2009-04-08 at 03:43 AM.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I disagree about it being evil due to classing honour as an irrelevant concept if you're using it to save lives (unless you're lawful). I think it should either be cheaper to reflect how the save DCs aren't that high, or it should be harder to resist due to being created to make people suffer like G did (I'd assume poisoners would attempt to perfect their recipes over time).
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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Farlion View Post
    Now on the fluff side, poison is evil. It's used by... underdogs. You can use poison to achiev something good, but there's nothing heroic about poisoning the tyrann. Using poison will always make you an outsider
    It's evil to be the underdog? Or just to maximize your advantages when you are? It's evil to be unheroic? To be "an outsider"?

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Farlion View Post
    Now on the fluff side, poison is evil. It's used by cowards, usurpers, assasins and underdogs. You can use poison to achiev something good, but there's nothing heroic about poisoning the tyrann. Using poison will always make you an outsider, will postmark you as a coward or even make you an outlaw. Poison is deceitful and will never make you any friends. If people know you work with poison, they will fear you, always.
    While I disagree with your assessment that poison is evil, what if that's what I want? There are plenty of other patently evil methods of fighting that make perfectly viable tactics, so why not poison as well?

    Here's just something I came up with off the top of my head. It's spoilered primarily because it's separate from my response to Farlion, but I don't want to make two posts, but it is relevant to the discussion, so please read it.

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    What about a "Poison Use" skill? Craft (poisonmaking) is sort of a poisoner's skill, but I mean an actual skill. I'd give it to probably (off the top of my head) rogues, rangers, druids, ninjas, scouts, hexblades, wilders, shadowcasters, swordsages, dread necromancers, dragon shamans, lurks, and maybe a few others, and probably also available via a feat. It would, naturally, be trained-only. Using it wouldn't take any special materials, unless you wanted a bonus on it (just like how you don't need to pay for special paper to use Forgery unless you want a circumstance bonus); it would be assumed that anyone with ranks in it would have the materials they needed. It would be used to poison a blade before combat, to determine the severity of that poison, and maybe even to re-envenom a blade in combat (perhaps with the length of the action dependent upon the check? Just brainstorming here). I'm thinking that only the highest checks would actually deal ability damage; most of it would deal HP damage or inflict penalties such as fatigued or sickened. In addition to that, anyone could purchase and use a poison just as they can right now; the Poison Use skill represents using generic poison frequently and expertly, whereas smearing a bottle of drow knockout juice on your axe just represents a special, out-of-the-ordinary effort. This would make poison use have a cost (skill points and in-combat actions), but still be viable at all levels for those who chose to specialize in it.
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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I always ignored the evil thing. IMHO, is dumb. In some istance i make poison use dishonorable, but that's all.

    About poison effectiveness, against the right targets are veery effective. Simply, you have to select the right weapon against the right target.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
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    For 4.0? I expect them to whine to the DM until he makes the big bad boogeyman go away.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    About poison effectiveness, against the right targets are veery effective. Simply, you have to select the right weapon against the right target.
    While that's true, it's almost impossible to use poison as your primary tactic. It's all well and good to use a vial or two as a secret weapon against a major enemy, but as it stands it's highly impractical to make someone who uses poison almost all the time, simply because it's way, way too expensive. There's no such thing as "general use" poison, like certain Ranger builds from Guild Wars or certain Assassin builds from Ragnarok Online.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 29. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    While that's true, it's almost impossible to use poison as your primary tactic. It's all well and good to use a vial or two as a secret weapon against a major enemy, but as it stands it's highly impractical to make someone who uses poison almost all the time, simply because it's way, way too expensive. There's no such thing as "general use" poison, like certain Ranger builds from Guild Wars or certain Assassin builds from Ragnarok Online.
    Or Wow Rogue (damned Crippling Poison).

    About my personal tastes, "spamming" poison let them lose their "special substance" thing.

    One of my player loves assassination (IN GAME, or at least, I hope so) so I let him play an avenger (april's fool but works fine!). He's Rogue 10 // Psywarrior 5 / Avenger5.

    He likes a lot poisons, so I let him craft them, through:

    - Gathering Poison directly from monsters

    - Gathering reagents from monsters (wraith dust from some undead and so on)

    - Gathering from herbs the party herbalist find

    - Buy

    This allows him to use them a little bit more times. There are "poisons" for undead and evil outsiders too (BoEC and BoBL), but he has to discover them, yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    DMing is how you turn D&D from a game into a hobby.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maroon View Post
    Players can see a story where there isn't one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    For 4.0? I expect them to whine to the DM until he makes the big bad boogeyman go away.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I've always had a problem with poisons.
    A wizard at level 1 can have a wand of enfeeblement worth 750g, that gives D6+1 strength damage 50 times with no save.
    A rogue at level 1 needs 35'000g in order to have the same effect with a DC 20 save available.

    I drew up a quick system for a friend of mine who wanted to use poisons for his character. (Native American flavoured Rogue/Ranger)
    He said poison would fit well, and I agreed.

    I came up with the following system, which we're now testing out.

    The following is useable 1/week. No retry. (You may wish to change the time period depending on how frequent you want poison used).

    Step 1) Choose a poison from the table below. This is important. Always do this first.
    Step 2) Roll a skill check. If you beat the Find DC, you find it. If not, you don't. For every 5 over the find DC, you gain another dose.

    Other points of note:
    You can either take a skill specific to it, Craft(Poison), and use that as the skill check.
    Alternatively you may wish to cost your player a feat (Poison Use) to be able to use his Survival check.
    Take away the chance of poisoning yourself, and give your players the above "Poison Use" feat, or skill focus Craft(Poison) instead of the ability that removes the risk of poisoning yourself.

    So far the system is working ok.

    {table] Find DC | Effect 1 | Effect 2 | Fort Save
    10 | 1D2 Dex | 1D2 Dex | 10
    10 | 1 Str | 1 Dex | 11
    12 | 1D2 Wis | 1D2 Wis + 1D2 Int | 13
    12 | | 1D4 Con + 1D3 Wis | 12
    13 | 1 Dex | 1D4 Dex | 12
    13 | 1 Wis | 2D6 Wis + 1D4 Int | 11
    14 | Unconscious 1 Min | Unconscious 1D3 Hours | 14
    15 | Stunned 1 round | Stunned 1D4 rounds | 12
    15 | 1 Con | Unconscious 1D3 Hours | 13
    15 | 1D4 Int | 2D6 Int | 14
    15 | 1D4 Con | 1D4 Con + Paralysis | 12
    15 | Paralysis (2D6 Mins) | | 13
    15 | 1 Con | 1D2 Con | 13
    15 | 1D4 Str | 1D4 Str | 12
    15 | 1D4 Dex | 1D4 Dex | 15
    16 | 1 Con | 1D8 Con | 13
    16 | | Unconscious D3 hours | 15
    15 | Paralysis (1 min) | | 13
    16 | Nausea | 1D4 Dex | 13
    17 | 1D4 Str | Unconscious D4 hours | 12
    17 | 1D6 Con | 1D6 Con | 12
    18 | 1D2 Str + 1D2 Dex | 1D4 Str | 14
    17 | 1D8 Dex | 1D4 Con | 14
    19 | | 3D6 Con | 13
    20 | 1D4 Con | 1D4 Con | 14
    20 | 1D6 Dex | 1D6 Dex | 14
    22 | 2D6 Str | 1D6 Str | 17
    22 | 1D4 Dex + 1D4 Wis | 1D6 Dex + 1D8 Wis | 15
    22 | 2 Cha | 1D6+1 Cha | 15
    22 | 2D12 HP | 1D6 Con | 16
    22 | 1 Dex | 2D4 Dex | 16
    22 | 2 Str | 1D6 Dex | 17
    23 | 1D6 Con | 2D4 Con + 2D4 Dex | 14
    23 | 1D4 Wis | 2D6 Wis | 15
    23 | 1D6 Str | 2D6 Str | 25
    25 | 1D6 Con | 1D6 Con | 16
    26 | 1D6 Dex | 2D6 Dex | 16
    28 | 2D6 Con | 1D6 Con + 1D6 Str | 18
    28 | Confusion | 1D4 Int | 20
    28 | 1D4 Int + 1D4 Wis | 1D4 Int + 1D4 Wis | 20
    28 | 2D6 Con | 2D6 Con | 17
    29 | 1D6 Con | 2D6 Con | 20
    29 | 1D6 Con + Nausea (1 min) | 3D6 Con | 18
    30 | 2 Con | 3D6 Con | 18
    31 | 1D4 Con | 2D4 Con | 19
    35 | 3D6 Str | | 26
    37 | 3D6 Con | 3D6 Con | 20
    [/table]

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I houserule poison to work similar to disease: Initial save vs initial damage, 1 minute later secondary save vs secondary damage, 1 minute later secondary save vs secondary damage, 1 minute later secondary save vs secondary damage, etc. until it's cured or they make two successful saves in a row. Poison effects created by spells deal secondary damage once per two caster levels, then it automatically ends. Multiple doses of the same poison while already infected deal initial damage and add +1 to the DC of the current ongoing secondary damage.

    I also like to run E6, poison is still relatively viable under that system, and particularly dangerous with this houserule.
    Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2009-04-08 at 05:47 AM.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Baalthazaq
    useful and clever stuff about poisons in D&D
    Or you could just take a simple route and allow Craft (Alchemy) to do something useful like, oh say, emulating level-appropriate spell effects. That means you can have bad-ass magical poisons at high level without resorting to the b0rkage of Epic "Anti-Magic Poisons" (Oh! how we laughed).

    Poison stops being something that makes the rogue cry, and instead makes them not-disimilar to oil-anointed weapons. You can have different poison effects by using different spells: poison of enfeeblement/sleep/blindness/slow/paralysis/death.

    No, this isn't broken. Poisons are still expensive, difficult-to-produce quasi-magical items that require close contact and in-game rolls (either combat or sleight of hand) to use successfully. And that's on top of their in-game infamy.
    Last edited by bosssmiley; 2009-04-08 at 07:41 AM.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I think poison should be a class feature for rogues and other sneaky types, but usable by other classes if they take feats for it.

    It should go by uses/day- sometimes with expensive material components, like wizard spells. There's no reason a rogue should have to shell out 500 gp for a save or take 1d6 str when the wizard does that for free without a save. The rogue should basically carry a "poison's bag", much like the wizard's spell component pouch, and just assumed that the rogue keeps it well stocked.

    DC should be 10 + (1/2 rogue level) + int modifier. Feats, spells, and expensive components, as well as items, would increase the save DC. For non-rogues who want to use poison, the feat would give them a rogue level = 1/2 their character level for the purposes of poisoning. For instance, after killing a red dragon, the rogue could harvest it for 1 dose per age category for an alchemical substance that increases the save against one poison attack he uses by 1 (+2 vs cold subtype), and adds 1d6 damage to the primary and secondary effects of his poison (no save). This would have no effect against creatures immune to fire.

    Poisons for rogues should be roughly on par with shadow hand and stone dragon maneuvers for the swordsage, focusing mostly on partial save effects. Terinav root, for instance would instead do 1d/1d6 dex damage and slow on a failed save, but if the target made the save, they would just be slowed instead.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    It should be exactly like this.

    [/self-plug]

    In general, it ought to be a tricky proposition, but not an outright impossibility. You need to work at it to be specialized. It should skate on the line of good and evil, law and chaos. Using a poison to subdue rather than kill? Probably more towards the good, and possibly even the lawful. (Think tranquilizer dart or taser, instead of bullet to the head). Slipping arsenic into a spouse's coffee? Probably evil and chaotic.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    It should be exactly like this.

    [/self-plug]

    In general, it ought to be a tricky proposition, but not an outright impossibility. You need to work at it to be specialized. It should skate on the line of good and evil, law and chaos. Using a poison to subdue rather than kill? Probably more towards the good, and possibly even the lawful. (Think tranquilizer dart or taser, instead of bullet to the head). Slipping arsenic into a spouse's coffee? Probably evil and chaotic.
    Your self-plug is ok, but I think it goes the wrong way. Poison needs a revamp, make it a class feature. It's a nice patch, if you like the current system, where you spend all your feats trying to make your class features worth a damn, unless you are a full caster, in which case you're awesome without doing anything but preparing some spells.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    It seems a little too specialized of a skill for it to be an "every rogue" sort of thing. There are lots of different sorts of Rogues - con men, fencing-types, catburglars. It just doesn't jive with me that every Rogue out there is going to know how to poison somebody. Everybody could put in the effort and know how to do it, if they chose to; but it doesn't seem like it ought to be an automatic thing.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I think it's fine the way it is. Here's why...

    -A wizard can do rays of enfeeblement that do 1d6+1 str at 1st, up to a couple times a day, many more if he has a wand. A rogue can do +1d6 damage an infinite number of times per day. Giving a rogue ability damage capabilities is like giving the wizard sneak attack bous damage.

    -Poison is added in immediately with an attack, so it's Base Damage + Precision Damage + Miscellaneous damage/effects + Poison. Not just the poison itself. You're getting two effects (at least) in one action.

    -Poison is expensive, yeah, but so are potions. If I'm not mistaken, there are potions that cost as much as the most expensive poison. So it's a matter of A) making yourself better or B) making your enemies worse.

    -Low DC's. Yes poison has somewhat low DC's relative to level or whatever. But that only matters when you try to poison a Fire Giant (or any other Tough). If you, the skillmonkey, come up against an Fire Giant, do you A) drink the potion of Greater Magic Weapon/Vestment +5 (3,000gp for either) or B) use the Wyvern Poison (3,000gp)? Ok, instead, now you are up against a 10th level wizard. Which now? The Greater Magic X potions might give you an advantage against the wizard, but not as much if he fails his save against the poison (and remember, he can dispel your potions). In the same light, even if the fire giant fails his save against the poison (he would have to roll a 2 to fail), that 2d6 con damage probably isn't as helpful as +5 attack and damage or +5 AC for you.

    -Many things are immune to poison (or have a high enough Fort save to where it doesn't matter). True, but not as many humanoids (with class levels) do, which is mostly what poisons are used against. Even if they are, usually because of a magic item, the magic item can be stolen (whether by stealth or disarm attempt) or destroyed with targeted attacks.


    As for poison being evil, I don't think that was well thought out. It's ok to shoot someone in the eye with a freaking crossbow from the shadows but god forbid you dip it in a dead insect first.

    It should not be evil, at least not any more than killing your opponent.

    EDIT: Poison use should be a skill or feat (assassins should get it for free, regardless, because they specialize in death).
    Last edited by Harperfan7; 2009-04-08 at 11:41 AM.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harperfan7 View Post
    I think it's fine the way it is. Here's why...

    -A wizard can do rays of enfeeblement that do 1d6+1 str at 1st, up to a couple times a day, many more if he has a wand. A rogue can do +1d6 damage an infinite number of times per day. Giving a rogue ability damage capabilities is like giving the wizard sneak attack bous damage.

    -Poison is added in immediately with an attack, so it's Base Damage + Precision Damage + Miscellaneous damage/effects + Poison. Not just the poison itself. You're getting two effects (at least) in one action.

    -Poison is expensive, yeah, but so are potions. If I'm not mistaken, there are potions that cost as much as the most expensive poison. So it's a matter of A) making yourself better or B) making your enemies worse.

    -Low DC's. Yes poison has somewhat low DC's relative to level or whatever. But that only matters when you try to poison a Fire Giant (or any other Tough). If you, the skillmonkey, come up against an Fire Giant, do you A) drink the potion of Greater Magic Weapon/Vestment +5 (3,000gp for either) or B) use the Wyvern Poison (3,000gp)? Ok, instead, now you are up against a 10th level wizard. Which now? The Greater Magic X potions might give you an advantage against the wizard, but not as much if he fails his save against the poison (and remember, he can dispel your potions). In the same light, even if the fire giant fails his save against the poison (he would have to roll a 2 to fail), that 2d6 con damage probably isn't as helpful as +5 attack and damage or +5 AC for you.

    -Many things are immune to poison (or have a high enough Fort save to where it doesn't matter). True, but not as many humanoids (with class levels) do, which is mostly what poisons are used against. Even if they are, usually because of a magic item, the magic item can be stolen (whether by stealth or disarm attempt) or destroyed with targeted attacks.


    As for poison being evil, I don't think that was well thought out. It's ok to shoot someone in the eye with a freaking crossbow from the shadows but god forbid you dip it in a dead insect first.

    It should not be evil, at least not any more than killing your opponent.

    EDIT: Poison use should be a skill or feat (assassins should get it for free, regardless, because they specialize in death).
    Great. I agree with you.

    If someone is interested, in Drow of The Underdark you can find rogue ACF and a feat to deliver poison without risk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    DMing is how you turn D&D from a game into a hobby.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maroon View Post
    Players can see a story where there isn't one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    For 4.0? I expect them to whine to the DM until he makes the big bad boogeyman go away.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I think poison is fine as is.

    1) You can craft your own poisons, and if you have RAW material components handy, you only pay 1/6th of the price to make a dose of poison. (I think that is in the Complete Scoundrel).

    2) If you are a poison maker, you can select feats that make your poisons more deadly/harder to resist.

    3) You still fail on a natural 1, unless immune to it.

    4) It feels like a realistic model (to me).

    Its useful in some situations, but not in most.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    The only way I've found use for poison on high lvl is this tactic:
    1. poison with DC 20+ (still mostly saved against, but you have a slim chance)
    2. use it on ranged weapons (bows or crossbows) to get 20 poisonous items for the price of 1
    3. use only con-poison, as that's the one who will give the most effect in battle (hp reduction)
    4. look at it as a boost: if it works, cool, if no, then that weren't your main plan anyway

    I think basically, the fix should be a way to increase the dc of the poison in some way.
    There's no by rules-way of doing this? (Increase virulence doesn't count, as it doesn't last long enough to be applied with the above method)
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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Narmoth View Post

    I think basically, the fix should be a way to increase the dc of the poison in some way.
    There's no by rules-way of doing this? (Increase virulence doesn't count, as it doesn't last long enough to be applied with the above method)
    Deep poisoning, ambush feat - xd6 less sneak attack, +x to poison CD - MAX 5 (Dragon Magaz 322).

    Complete Scoundrel has Poison Expert to raise CD of 1 (and poison Master to increse die stat damage).

    Hope can be useful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I don't mind the fact that, in the abstract, poisons are expensive. They should be. But what's crazy to me is the absurd amount of time (under the current system) that you would need to spend in order to produce even the weakest of them.

    Let's take arsenic, for example. 120 gp, 1Con/1d8Con damage, ingested DC 13. 1200 silver pieces, craft DC is 15. Let's say there's a 12th-level Rogue who's put max ranks in Craft (Poison), who has an INT of 14, took Skill Focus (Craft Poison), and has a masterwork poisonmaking tool (whatever that is). He pays 40gp of raw materials. Let's say he rolls a 20. 20+2(int)+15(ranks)+3 (skill focus)+2(MW tools)=42. 42*15=630.

    Okay, let's say he puts a +10dc to speed it up. Again, assuming all 20s: 42*25=1050

    A twelfth-level Rogue, who specializes in poison and rolled a 20 on his craft check, is unable to finish one of the weakest poisons in the book, in a week's work. Hextor help him if he thinks about crafting a poison that might actually affect something at his level! Even a Wizard with CON 10 gets a +4 to Fort at 12. He needs to roll a 9 or better to save. For two weeks of downtime and 40gp spent, you get something that will fail over half the time.

    That same Rogue levels up to 20. His INT is now 18. Craft Result: 52 on a natural 20. Great, this time you make 1300/1200 progress. Whee, at level 20 you're able to make a 120-gp item in a week!

    That level 20 Rogue says, okay, I'm good enough with arsenic. I'm going to make some black lotus extract. Craft DC is 35, price is 45,000 silver, +10dc to speed it up. 52*45=2340 maximum. Rolling nothing but natural 20s, you will need 20 weeks - or about five months - to produce the poison. A more average result, 42*45=1890, means you need 24 weeks (or close to six months) to finish it, assuming you make all of your checks.

    Six months. For a 20th-level character whose focus is producing poison, and who is doing nothing but trying to make that poison. There is something very wrong with that.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Complete Adventurer says the result of CD x Roll is expressed in Gold

    To figure out how much poison you are able to create in a week, make a Craft (poisonmaking) check at the end of the week. If the check is successful, multiply the check result by the DC for the check.

    That result is how many gp worth of poison you created that week. When your total gp created equals or exceeds the market price of one dose of the poison, that dose is finished
    English is not my main language... maybe I missed something but say a rogue 20, 27 rank + int + item in poison making

    Average roll 37, say black lotus 35

    37 x 35 is 1295 in four weeks you are done. You one shot a caster with that, I'm fine.

    Assuming that I didn't misquoted CA (in that case, is enough... houserule my misunderstanding!) if it's so apologies, but I've PH in italian and CA in english
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harperfan7 View Post
    I think it's fine the way it is. Here's why...

    -A wizard can do rays of enfeeblement that do 1d6+1 str at 1st, up to a couple times a day, many more if he has a wand. A rogue can do +1d6 damage an infinite number of times per day. Giving a rogue ability damage capabilities is like giving the wizard sneak attack bous damage.
    I do not think your analogy works. If you give wizards sneak attack, you're boosting the power of an already overpowered class. If you give rogues ability damage, you're boosting the power of a mid-low powered class.
    Boosting overpowered class =/= Boosting mid-low powered class

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by bosssmiley View Post
    Or you could just take a simple route and allow Craft (Alchemy) to do something useful like, oh say, emulating level-appropriate spell effects. That means you can have bad-ass magical poisons at high level without resorting to the b0rkage of Epic "Anti-Magic Poisons" (Oh! how we laughed).

    Poison stops being something that makes the rogue cry, and instead makes them not-disimilar to oil-anointed weapons. You can have different poison effects by using different spells: poison of enfeeblement/sleep/blindness/slow/paralysis/death.

    No, this isn't broken. Poisons are still expensive, difficult-to-produce quasi-magical items that require close contact and in-game rolls (either combat or sleight of hand) to use successfully. And that's on top of their in-game infamy.
    This. Poisons need to be cheaper, and easier/faster to make, but giving them effects other than generic stat damage is the most important thing. I mean, real poisons can paralyze or blind you. Fantasy poisons should be able to do that and more.
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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Edit: Sorry Kaiyanwang I totally misunderstood you and thought you were talking to me. My bad. I'm leaving the post up anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Complete Adventurer says the result of CD x Roll is expressed in Gold



    English is not my main language... maybe I missed something but say a rogue 20, 27 rank + int + item in poison making

    Average roll 37, say black lotus 35

    37 x 35 is 1295 in four weeks you are done. You one shot a caster with that, I'm fine.

    Assuming that I didn't misquoted CA (in that case, is enough... houserule my misunderstanding!) if it's so apologies, but I've PH in italian and CA in english
    I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say here, but you've definitely mistaken my system. :) It doesn't work on gold at all.

    Black Lotus is a Find DC 35 say. Find DC is something I invented, not a cost.

    What this means is the Rogue says "I want black lotus poison this week".
    He now rolls D20 + 27 and tries to beat 35.

    Here is a table. On the left, the result of his roll. On the right, what he gets this week. I hope this makes clear my intention.

    {table]Result | Number of doses
    28 | 0
    29 | 0
    30 | 0
    31 | 0
    32 | 0
    33 | 0
    34 | 0
    35 | 1
    36 | 1
    37 | 1
    38 | 1
    39 | 1
    40 | 2
    41 | 2
    42 | 2
    43 | 2
    44 | 2
    45 | 3
    46 | 3
    47 | 3[/table]
    Last edited by Baalthazaq; 2009-04-08 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Total misunderstanding.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I divide poison up into three types

    Combat (now, 1 minute later)
    Swift (1 minute, 1 hour, 1 hour)
    Subtle (6 hours, 6 hours, 6 hours, 6 hours)

    It takes 2 hours to find the stuff to make the poison and 2 more hours to brew it. If you have a poisonmakers kit it takes no time to find the items (but you still have to pay for making the poison).

    Then for crafting it i make the DC equal to the DC of the save+2 (for a 1d4 damage injury poison).

    +4 for a d6 poison

    +6 for a 2d4 poison

    +8 for a 2d6 poison

    Plus any of these other factors:
    1 of the poisons saves has its normal effect replaced by: sleep/1d4 hr effect- +1
    '' '' Unconscous 1/hr +6
    '' '' Paralysis 1/min- +4
    '' '' sickened 1/hr- +2
    '' '' Nauseated 1/min- +2
    '' '' Fatigued +1
    '' '' Blindness 2/hr +4
    Poison is contact: +3
    Poison is Ingested: -2
    Brewing time reduced to 10 minutes: +2
    Character also has an alchemists kit: -2

    The poisons cost equal to the craft DCx3 in gold pieces. Poisons can be made a 1/3 cost but it takes an additional 48 hours to do so.
    Last edited by Stormthorn; 2009-04-08 at 01:43 PM.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Complete Adventurer says the result of CD x Roll is expressed in Gold



    English is not my main language... maybe I missed something but say a rogue 20, 27 rank + int + item in poison making

    Average roll 37, say black lotus 35

    37 x 35 is 1295 in four weeks you are done. You one shot a caster with that, I'm fine.

    Assuming that I didn't misquoted CA (in that case, is enough... houserule my misunderstanding!) if it's so apologies, but I've PH in italian and CA in english
    ... ::jawdrop::

    How could I have missed that?! Well, I withdraw my main objection, then.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom Ninja View Post
    I do not think your analogy works. If you give wizards sneak attack, you're boosting the power of an already overpowered class. If you give rogues ability damage, you're boosting the power of a mid-low powered class.
    Boosting overpowered class =/= Boosting mid-low powered class
    That's only if you cater to the whole, x class is better than y class stuff. In my experience, only the druid is more powerful than others, and that's easy to fix as a DM (I stick to core mostly).

    EDIT: I think the complete equipment book has poisons that do other status effects.
    Last edited by Harperfan7; 2009-04-08 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    ... ::jawdrop::

    How could I have missed that?! Well, I withdraw my main objection, then.
    Wait, was that sarcasm? 4 weeks per dose on a character that does nothing but poisons? That doesn't seem fast enough for me.
    Last edited by Baalthazaq; 2009-04-12 at 07:46 AM. Reason: Sorry, I was actuall just editing to check something. Nothing substantial has changed.

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    Default Re: What *should* poison be? [3.5]

    I can see people have been ignoring my earlier spoiler'd post. Here, let me repost it.

    What about a "Poison Use" skill? Craft (poisonmaking) is sort of a poisoner's skill, but I mean an actual skill. I'd give it to probably (off the top of my head) rogues, rangers, druids, ninjas, scouts, hexblades, wilders, shadowcasters, swordsages, dread necromancers, dragon shamans, lurks, and maybe a few others, and probably also available via a feat. It would, naturally, be trained-only. Using it wouldn't take any special materials, unless you wanted a bonus on it (just like how you don't need to pay for bandages and ointments for Heal unless you want a circumstance bonus); it would be assumed that anyone with ranks in it would have the materials they needed. It would be used to poison a blade before combat, to determine the severity of that poison, and maybe even to re-envenom a blade in combat (perhaps with the length of the action dependent upon the check? Just brainstorming here). I'm thinking that only the highest checks would actually deal ability damage; most of it would deal HP damage or inflict penalties such as fatigued or sickened. In addition to that, anyone could purchase and use a poison just as they can right now; the Poison Use skill represents using generic poison frequently and expertly, whereas smearing a bottle of drow knockout juice on your axe just represents a special, out-of-the-ordinary effort. This would make poison use have a cost (skill points and in-combat actions), but still be viable at all levels for those who chose to specialize in it. The exact numbers would require work by someone with a better sense of balance than me, but I think it's a viable idea.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2009-04-08 at 02:28 PM.
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