(4e) Bard and Spiked Chain

[BlackRabite]

Myself and a friend are re-creating an old duo from our 3.5 days, a half-giant Spiked Chain Fighter and a Gnome bard that rode around on him like master blaster. We're aware that there are no playable large-sized races so riding him around won't work in 4ed but we do have a couple other inquiries.

1) Bards: I started to build my first 4e Bard last night and they seem... not good compared to the other leaders. They seem to focus more on positioning and minor bonuses with very few healing powers. I'm hoping that I am missing something but they seem overall to be greatly weaker than the other leaders, anyone have any specific builds or some insight about bards that could help me out.

2) Spiked Chain: My friend is currently trying to figure out if he'll get more damage by going Tempest Fighter or Ranger with the Spiked Chain multiclass feat. I did some searching but I couldn't find any optimized builds for 4e spiked chains floating around, anyone seen or have one?

[Drakefall]

Well if you take a gander at the phb2 you will find the gnome and goliath races. Gnomes are... well still gnomes and make excellent bards, and goliaths are pretty much the largest medium creatures there are and to me seem as though they would be large were it not for possible imbalance issues with large weapons or some such. So they're about the closest thing to a half-giant you can find. Comparing the sizes: small gnome average height at 3'2"-3'6" - "medium" goliath average height 7'2"-7'8" I'm pretty sure you could get a gnome to happily ride atop a goliath.

I haven't seen a bard in play and haven't given the class much of a read so I can't help you with that but as far as the spiked chain question goes you will definitely be doing more damage as a ranger. Rangers are strikers and fighters, even tempests, are defenders so ranger wins out on damage. It's as simple as that. Your friend will have to decide if he'd rather be tanky and deal ok to nice damage or be all out in the damage department and low on defenses.

[Hzurr]

Bards are really, really good; just different.

Yes, their healing lags a bit, but they make up for it by being able to shift those they heal.

For my read over the bards (We just got one in my campaign, but I've only gotten to see it in one session, so I can't really say for certain how it plays), is that there are different ways to build them that complement different parties.

Abilities that make your enemies grant combat advantage? The rogue will love you.

Ability that marks the enemy for another player? The defenders will love you.

Abilities that prevent an enemy from attacking a specific ally? The squishy people in the back will love you when they get ambushed.

While the bard doesn't do the damage of a warlord, or the healing of a cleric, or have the trampoline-making powers of the artificer (Man, I hate the artificer), the bard actually strikes me as one of the best leaders in the game, because you help other people do what they do best.

(Also, with multiclassing you can have so many skills trained it will make your head hurt, and give you more options than any other class could dream of)

[Ninetail]

1) Bards: I started to build my first 4e Bard last night and they seem... not good compared to the other leaders. They seem to focus more on positioning and minor bonuses with very few healing powers.

If you define "leader" as "guy who heals," then yes, bards are weaker than the other leaders.

If you define "leader" in terms of general support, I think the bard may be the strongest of them all. Those bonuses might seem minor, but they add up over the course of a fight, and positioning is very powerful in 4e.

Unless you play with a GM who runs lots of combats in empty rooms and on wide, open plains, of course.

2) Spiked Chain: My friend is currently trying to figure out if he'll get more damage by going Tempest Fighter or Ranger with the Spiked Chain multiclass feat. I did some searching but I couldn't find any optimized builds for 4e spiked chains floating around, anyone seen or have one?

Neither is a very good choice. A spiked chain is not a double weapon in 4e. It won't hurt to treat it as one, though, since otherwise it's a very poor weapon.

If your GM won't go for that, pick up a double flail from Adventurer's Vault -- it's the same thing, basically. d10/d10 damage, but only a +2 proficiency bonus.

Once you have a dual weapon, ranger powers are generally a better choice as far as damage is concerned. However, the right fighter powers are quite effective, too, and they can have weapon-specific benefits. I don't know what flails offer, offhand, but it could be enough of a bonus to overcome the raw damage difference (which is not that big in any case).

[Asbestos]

Neither is a very good choice. A spiked chain is not a double weapon in 4e. It won't hurt to treat it as one, though, since otherwise it's a very poor weapon.

With the Multiclass feats it is, in fact, a double weapon.

While a TWF Ranger with the spiked chain would do more damage, I think that the fighter might work better for your concept. Primarily because the Bard can use his marking powers to cause the target to be marked by the fighter he is riding on top of. The chain gains the 'off-hand' keyword so it works well with Tempest fighters (arguably it is the best weapon there is for them) and well... if you're starting low, take a look at 'Funneling Fury', a level 1 fighter encounter power from Martial Power... now add on the fact that you have a reach weapon in each hand... and bam, battlefield control at level 1. Ignore the 'Dragging Flail' feat from Martial Power, its only attractive until you realize that almost no powers knock things prone, especially in heroic tier.

For a ranger... its the best reach weapon you can get, but you can easily do more damage with say, craghammers. Beastmaster rangers probably get more use out of it than TWF rangers. Also, rangers are squishier, and that's just bad news for the gnome riding on top.

[Inyssius Tor]

Neither is a very good choice. A spiked chain is not a double weapon in 4e. It won't hurt to treat it as one, though, since otherwise it's a very poor weapon.

Joke's on you, pal!

Spiked Chain Training [Multiclass]
Prerequisite: Dex 13, any martial class
Benefit: You gain proficiency with the spiked chain. You can treat the spiked chain as a double weapon and a light blade [in addition to the flail that it already is]. As a double weapon, the spiked chain deals 2d4/2d4 damage, and it gains the off-hand property.

Spiked Chain Novice
Prerequisite: Spiked Chain Training, 4th level
Benefit: You can swap one 3rd-level or higher encounter attack power you know for the chain trip attack power [a Dexterity vs. Reflex attack which deals damage, slides the target 2 squares, and knocks them prone].

Spiked Chain Expert
Prerequisite: Spiked Chain Training, 8th level
Benefit: You can swap one 6th-level or higher utility power you know for the chain ward utility power [a martial Stance that gives you threatening reach until the end of the encounter].

Spiked Chain Specialist
Prerequisite: Spiked Chain Training, 10th level
Benefit: You can swap one 9th-level or higher daily attack power you know for the steel shackles utility power [it grabs the target--even at range; deals damage; gives a -2 to escape attempts; you can slide the target 1 square as a minor action; and when you maintain the grab, you deal more damage].

----

The spiked chain is very good.

Those are in Dragon 372, by the way. And the policy on Dragon Magazine changed when 4E came out; now, it is regarded as "Core" as the Player's Handbook or Martial Power. Everything in it is legal at RPGA games, for example.

[BlackRabite]

With the Multiclass feats it is, in fact, a double weapon.

While a TWF Ranger with the spiked chain would do more damage, I think that the fighter might work better for your concept. Primarily because the Bard can use his marking powers to cause the target to be marked by the fighter he is riding on top of. The chain gains the 'off-hand' keyword so it works well with Tempest fighters (arguably it is the best weapon there is for them) and well... if you're starting low, take a look at 'Funneling Fury', a level 1 fighter encounter power from Martial Power... now add on the fact that you have a reach weapon in each hand... and bam, battlefield control at level 1. Ignore the 'Dragging Flail' feat from Martial Power, its only attractive until you realize that almost no powers knock things prone, especially in heroic tier.

After some deliberation with my counterpart I think the choice is now between Tempest Chain fighter or using a Halberd with Polearm Momentum and Footwork Lure to slide and knock targets prone.

I think he's leaning towards the Polearm build, at paragon Spear Push adds a square to any push or slide made with a polearm, making them all trip and at epic Knock Back Swing will let him push 3 and trip on OA's if he goes Polearm Master.

[Mando Knight]

After some deliberation with my counterpart I think the choice is now between Tempest Chain fighter or using a Halberd with Polearm Momentum and Footwork Lure to slide and knock targets prone.

I think he's leaning towards the Polearm build, at paragon Spear Push adds a square to any push or slide made with a polearm, making them all trip and at epic Knock Back Swing will let him push 3 and trip on OA's if he goes Polearm Master.

If he wants a Polearm build, have him look into the Greatspear. Same damage and reach as a halberd or longspear, but has a +3 proficiency bonus. And if he's an Eladrin, Eladrin Soldier grants proficiency in it (and Tratnyr) for free alongside the +2 feat bonus to damage.