Anything vs. Wizard 20 (3.X)

[afroakuma]

Well, Uber-caster 20, anyway. Even Incantatrix.

Can a 20th level standard caster (9th level spell access, in other words) be killed without overoptimization, core-only?

Can a 20th level standard caster be killed without overoptimization, given all first-party 3.X resources?

Overoptimization: relying on enough damage to melt the victim into a molecular puddle in a single hit, relying on a cheesed-out strategy (Omniscifier, Pun-Pun), relying on the same stuff your opponent has and a better initiative role (any other full caster), relying on a questionable rules interpretation (Crusader's killer shuriken, locate city nuke) or anything else that would either break the game (some examples) or is noticeably far above "comparable" core power levels and comes from a non-core source.

So ideally, avoiding using another wizard or another full caster (cleric, druid, sorcerer, archivist, what have you) or artificier (considered around par with these) and without exploiting cheese such as candle of invocation loops, shape changing to wacky monsters, gated armies of solars or Diplomancying a god to do it for you, is there any way to accomplish either of the above goals?

And I do mean anything (short of the Epic Level Handbook). Dragon with class levels? Good to go. Chronotyryn? Have at it.

[chiasaur11]

Well, Ao and the Lady of Pain could do it.

Or...

Duh.

A Wizard 21.

[Eldariel]

In Core, it isn't even especially difficult - sure, there'll be the Contingency to deal with and probably some manner of Divination-effects (giving the Wizard an idea to expect you) and Moment of Prescience and so on, but getting him within a Dimensional Lock and surprising him should get the job done.

Dimensional Lock disables most of the Wizard's easy defenses, forcing him to use Walls, Fogs and so on without the ability to be anywhere he chooses to. Of course, this is provided that the Wizard isn't utilizing some Astral Projection/Plane Shift trickery, but as Genesis isn't Core, he'd technically be mortal while doing this too as someone can just find his real body and go postal.


But yeah, a Core-only Wizard can die. An all-sources Wizard...well, you'd need some seriously powerful things, like an overdeity to hunt one down. Basically, if you have the power to destroy entire planes, it should be possible. Pinpointing him would most likely not be.


I'd like to point out that e.g. Great Wyrm Red Dragon is basically a Sorcerer 19 Gish, and thus it's easily within its capabilities to kill a Core Wizard as it has access to all the same tricks, along with a bunch of epic feats and what have you.

[The Glyphstone]

Abusing non-associated class levels seems to be the easiest core option. A Stone Giant is CR8 base, with 14 Giant HD. Using the Elite array and adding 14 levels of Wizard pushes it up to CR15, at which point you can add another 5 levels of Wizard before hitting CR 20. End result is a Stone Giant Wizard 19 with 14d10+19d4 HD. Putting the 15 from the Elite array into Intelligence and spending all 4 stat boosts in Int gets Int 19 and the ability to use 9th level spells. Plus, he has the potential to take up to 4 Epic feats because he breaches 21HD after 6 levels of Wizard, all at only CR20.

[monty]

In core, it's possible, but difficult. Out of core, with persisted everything and a lot more defensive spells, it's probably impossible against a sufficiently prepared caster.

Also, it seems everyone is missing the qualifications, like "not using another caster against it."

[The Glyphstone]

That's because it can't be done outside of absurdly contrived circumstances, 20th level full casters are simply that good. You need magic to fight magic.

[afroakuma]

In Core, it isn't even especially difficult - sure, there'll be the Contingency to deal with and probably some manner of Divination-effects (giving the Wizard an idea to expect you) and Moment of Prescience and so on, but getting him within a Dimensional Lock and surprising him should get the job done.

I assume you're getting a rogue or bard to supply the dimensional lock, since no full casting classes are allowed in this challenge?

And what about time stop?

But yeah, a Core-only Wizard can die. An all-sources Wizard...well, you'd need some seriously powerful things, like an overdeity to hunt one down. Basically, if you have the power to destroy entire planes, it should be possible. Pinpointing him would most likely not be.

What specifically would you need to eliminate from all-sources to limit such a wizard? Besides genesis, for obvious reasons...

That's because it can't be done outside of absurdly contrived circumstances, 20th level full casters are simply that good. You need magic to fight magic.

In which case your answer is not "X kind of caster," it is "no."

[monty]

That's because it can't be done outside of absurdly contrived circumstances, 20th level full casters are simply that good. You need magic to fight magic.

The question was "Can you beat a level 20 wizard without using another full caster?" Your answer was "Yes, but with a full caster." This is not an appropriate answer.

And ninja'ed by the OP.

[The Glyphstone]

The question was "Can you beat a level 20 wizard without using another full caster?" Your answer was "Yes, but with a full caster." This is not an appropriate answer.

And ninja'ed by the OP.

That would be because I missed the line that said 'without using a full caster' until after I had made a response, at which point I edited/reposted.

[Eldariel]

I assume you're getting a rogue or bard to supply the dimensional lock, since no full casting classes are allowed in this challenge?

And what about time stop?

Time Stop is no problem if they never get to cast it. Most important function of Dimensional Lock is to pre-empt most Contingencies. And yeah, UMD Dimensional Lock - expensive, but bleh.

In core, it's possible, but difficult. Out of core, with persisted everything and a lot more defensive spells, it's probably impossible against a sufficiently prepared caster.

Also, it seems everyone is missing the qualifications, like "not using another caster against it."

It was specifically stated that a Dragon is a fair game. That said, yea, having CL 19 casting feels like breaking the terms.


At any rate, to touch upon the problems outside Core:
-Astral Projection + Plane Shift allows you to act perfectly normal while being immortal for all practical purposes.
-Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank effectively make you undetectable (subject to some dissent - Nondetection has also been thrown around, but it's not reliable as it allows for a CL check)
-Craft Contingent Spell allows you to have contingent Celerities/Time Stops/whatever equal to your HD made to trigger either on speaking (free action, can be done wherever) or "hostile action towards you", or some such. Point being, 20 extra contingencies is kinda overkill.
-Celerity+Foresight means that the Wizard goes first against everyone without access to Celerity. Moment of Prescience further means that Wizard wins initiative against everyone without.
-Contact Other Plane means that he's effectively prepared for whatever is gonna happen. As there're no natural 1s on ability checks, as long as he has 40 Int, he's never gonna go dumb talking to Greater Deities (although he could arrange a contingent restoration even if he did risk it), and with Spontaneous Divination he'll always be able to cast the spell a few times and do a few lines of questioning on which spells to prepare tomorrow.


Those are the worst offenders off the top of my head. There're certainly others though, but if that bunch was controlled, the Wizard may be at a slight risk of death.

You may be interested in Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster-thread - it covers most of the common combos a Wizard runs. Some discussion on whether it were theorethically possible to kill one here. During this discussion, I grew an entirely new respect towards Weapons of Legacy as they allow martial characters to replicate many of Wizard's tricks.

[Draz74]

What specifically would you need to eliminate from all-sources to limit such a wizard? Besides genesis, for obvious reasons...

Mind Blank (so that you can fight divination with divination)
Celerity (& co.)

I think those would be the two biggest offenders.

Of course, instead of eliminating Mind Blank, you could just make more effects that specifically pierce it. That's not out of line for 9th-level effects, as demonstrated by the Metafaculty psionic power (which, even if there's no house rules to help out, should be one of the staple tools for anyone planning to go on high-level-wizard-hunts).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmmm...

I don't see how it will be done, as long as Foresight, Contingency, and Time Stop are in the picture.

About the best I can do is use a Rogue with a Scroll of Dimensional Anchor (better than DimLock, because the Rogue is most likely going to be able to hit on a RTA from concealment, and prevents the wizard from Time Stopping and running out of the area to teleport out). However, there is no way to prevent Time Stop from occurring. Without Time Stop, the Rogue can try to use a Scroll of Disintegrate and kill the Wizard that way. Or you can try the Gatling Thrower which uses Rogue/Swordsage/Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower to dish out extremely obnoxious number of attacks with loads of Precision-Based Damage. Failing that, a Wand of Scorching Ray also works to load on precision-based damage.

If the rogue is able to attack from surprise in a surprise round before the Wizard can act, with a Dimensional Anchor, and remain hidden, then he has a chance. In Core, he doesn't have access to Contingency Celerity -> Time Stop combo.

So in Core, a Rogue, using Hide and Move Silently, using Magic Aura to conceal any traces of magical items auras, might have a chance, depending on how the Contingency was worded, and if the Wizard had Foresight up.

Out of Core, there is no way. Period. Contingency Celerity -> Time Stop = Win Button that cannot be averted.

[monty]

It was specifically stated that a Dragon is a fair game. That said, yea, having CL 19 casting feels like breaking the terms.

That and you're using a CR 26 monster against him, which should be extraordinarily difficult for a level 20 party, and you've probably at best given him an equal challenge.

[afroakuma]

Alright, so we assume celerity and its ilk along with genesis get the axe.

Is it now winnable?

[Crow]

You'll have to goad the wizard into staying around long enough to lay down a dimensional lock. In CORE, you can contingency teleport with a trigger of "When I cast feather fall", which combined with foresight means the wizard can leave at any time he likes.

Psions have a similar ability in detect hostile intent and catfall.

[Eldariel]

Alright, so we assume celerity and its ilk along with genesis get the axe.

Is it now winnable?

Superior Invisibility still means that the Wizard can never be found ever. And Craft Contingent Spell means that the Wizard acts first 20-100 times if anyone dares bother him. Those two should at least get axe.

[RandomFellow]

Choker + Rogue 18 can take a Wizard (but only with UMD to emulate spells).

Needs:
Surprise Round
Scroll of Antimagic Field (+21 UMD, Skill Focus (UMD) +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Synergy +4 [Spellcraft, Decipher Script] for +30, so you only fail on a natural 1.)
Antimagic Field + Grapple during surprise round.
No Contingency which would trigger before the AMF came into effect.

[Eldariel]

Choker + Rogue 18 can take a Wizard (but only with UMD to emulate spells).

Needs:
Surprise Round
Scroll of Antimagic Field (+21 UMD, Skill Focus (UMD) +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Synergy +4 [Spellcraft, Decipher Script] for +30, so you only fail on a natural 1.)
Antimagic Field + Grapple during surprise round.
No Contingency which would trigger before the AMF came into effect.

And no Invoke Magic, which allows casting in an AMF. Seriously, why Grapple if you get him into an AMF? Shouldn't you just kill him then? I mean, Wizards don't exactly have triple digit AC or hundreds of HP in AMFs.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Alright, so we assume celerity and its ilk along with genesis get the axe.

Is it now winnable?

If we get rid of Time Stop, Foresight, and Contingency, then he can be beaten in Core. Otherwise, he will know something bad will happen with Foresight, then Teleport away.

Out of Core, he still has too many win buttons and 'no' buttons.

[afroakuma]

True seeing beats it, but I can see the concern. Craft Contingent Spell is far too rife for abuse, so that's definitely banished.

[Eldariel]

True seeing beats it, but I can see the concern. Craft Contingent Spell is far too rife for abuse, so that's definitely banished.

It's not unreasonable to rule that True Seeing loses to Mind Blank, that's the problem (the opposite ruling is defendable too, though, but easier just to get rid of Superior Invis). Mind Blank blocks Divinations and True Seeing is a Divination.

Also, you basically need to be something with permanent True Seeing to truly threaten a Wizard with Persisted Superior Invis, and that's provided that you're getting a favourable ruling there. Really, that spell shouldn't exist. Technically you can beat it with an Epic Spot-check (something like DC 60), but really, it just shouldn't exist, period.

[streakster]

Choker + Rogue 18 can take a Wizard (but only with UMD to emulate spells).

Needs:
Surprise Round
Scroll of Antimagic Field (+21 UMD, Skill Focus (UMD) +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Synergy +4 [Spellcraft, Decipher Script] for +30, so you only fail on a natural 1.)
Antimagic Field + Grapple during surprise round.
No Contingency which would trigger before the AMF came into effect.

Sadly, no. Foresight means no surprise round. Various spells and feats mean that he can fight just fine in an AMF.

I tried something like that once, so trust me here. It's annoying as all heck.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To beat Superior See Invis you only need a toy that can grant See Invis. That isn't too difficult. Failing that, Wand of Glitterdust.

Beating Mirror Image will be more difficult, you WILL need True Sight for that.

[Crow]

Can Mind Blank foil Foresight? Foresight is the real problem.

[monty]

To beat Superior See Invis you only need a toy that can grant See Invis. That isn't too difficult. Failing that, Wand of Glitterdust.

I assume you meant Superior Invisibility, in which case no, because it explicitly ignores both of those spells.

[Eldariel]

To beat Superior See Invis you only need a toy that can grant See Invis. That isn't too difficult. Failing that, Wand of Glitterdust.

No they don't. That's the very problem.

EDIT:

Can Mind Blank foil Foresight? Foresight is the real problem.

It's a bit complicated. Generally it depends on what you're doing. IT doesn't need to detect you to detect that his lung is about to be punctured or that he's about to end up in an anti-magic field.

[afroakuma]

It's not unreasonable to rule that True Seeing loses to Mind Blank, that's the problem (the opposite ruling is defendable too, though, but easier just to get rid of Superior Invis). Mind Blank blocks Divinations and True Seeing is a Divination.

It's this kind of RAW failure that I hate. It technically allows dimension door in an antimagic field, which is just silly.

Also, you basically need to be something with permanent True Seeing to truly threaten a Wizard with Persisted Superior Invis

Shouldn't that be... a 14th level spell?

[streakster]

Can Mind Blank foil Foresight? Foresight is the real problem.

I don't believe it does... after all, Foresight just says flat "You are never surprised or flat-footed." Nothing about other creatures there at all. I could be wrong though.

[monty]

Shouldn't that be... a 14th level spell?

Incantatrix, or an artificer ally (if you cast it from an item), or probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

[Eldariel]

Shouldn't that be... a 14th level spell?

There're tons of ways to persist spells without adjustment. The easiest is Incantatrix - all you need is a Spellcraft check to Persist it.

EDIT: Ninja'd twice in a row. Way to go monty, way to go. I think I'll give you Ninja of the Month-award. Happy?