Is this build even legal?

[Os1ris09]

Hey guys I found this build but cannot determine if it is even allowed. Also I cant find some of the feats in any of my pdf's. Please help me find them. Thanks GITP

Also can someone explain how you can go into Mystic Thuerge with only 1 level in sorcerer?

Phrenic Jungle Kobold Druid 3/Sorcerer 1/Mystic Thuerge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/ Mystic Thuegre +2 (LA+2)

Base stats: -4Str, +2Dex, +2Wis, +4Cha (race), +3 Int, +3 Wis, +3 Cha
Total: -4Str, +2 Dex, +3 Int, +5 Wis, +7 Cha)

Druid casting level 19
Sorc casting level 20

Feats:
Dragonwrought (flaw)
Heighten Spell (flaw)
Versatile Spellcaster (1)
Knowledge Devotion (3)
Draconic Reservoir (6)*
Free (9)
Free (12)
Free (15)
Free (18)

For the free feats I would take
9th: natural Spell
12th: Frozen Wildshape
15th: Assume Supernatural Ability
18th: Dragon Wildshape

edit: I can't find the feat with the asterix. Also I don't know if this build would even work? Don't even know what it does. XD

[Zincorium]

Why do you hate the DM so much? And how are you planning on hiding this hate from him when you submit your character for approval?


In any case:

Probably, the method used was Precocious Apprentice, which has never allowed you to take mystic theurge with just one level (clarified in the offical FAQ), but is occasionally said to do so by *theoretical* optimization junkies in various 'game-breaker' builds that are never meant to see play. Yours bears a certain similarity to some of them.

The Draconic Reservoir feat is here on wotc's site. Along with the greater draconic ritual that allows you to cast as a higher level sorceror.

[Sinfire Titan]

Why do you hate the DM so much? And how are you planning on hiding this hate from him when you submit your character for approval?


In any case:

Probably, the method used was Precocious Apprentice, which has never allowed you to take mystic theurge with just one level (clarified in the offical FAQ), but is occasionally said to do so by *theoretical* optimization junkies in various 'game-breaker' builds that are never meant to see play. Yours bears a certain similarity to some of them.

The Draconic Reservoir feat is here on wotc's site. Along with the greater draconic ritual that allows you to cast as a higher level sorceror.

Were it a Wizard, I would have suggested the same thing (Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist, which does qualify the character for 2nd level spells with only 1 Wizard level). However, I need to point this part out.

Phrenic Jungle Kobold Druid 3/Sorcerer 1/Mystic Thuerge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/ Mystic Thuegre +2 (LA+2)

Base stats: -4Str, +2Dex, +2Wis, +4Cha (race), +3 Int, +3 Wis, +3 Cha
Total: -4Str, +2 Dex, +3 Int, +5 Wis, +7 Cha)

Druid casting level 19
Sorc casting level 20

Feats:
Dragonwrought (flaw)
Heighten Spell (flaw)
Versatile Spellcaster (1)
Knowledge Devotion (3)
Draconic Reservoir (6)*
Free (9)
Free (12)
Free (15)
Free (18)

Odds are he's using Loredrake+the Greater Dragonic Reservoir to get improved Sorcerer casting, then using Heighten Spell+Versatile Spellcaster to mimic having 2nd level spells. This does qualify him, but is actually more unstable and more house-rule dependent than the Wizard method I just mentioned.

[Zincorium]

Were it a Wizard, I would have suggested the same thing (Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist, which does qualify the character for 2nd level spells with only 1 Wizard level). However, I need to point this part out.

Ok, it's not in the FAQ, like I thought, but still... this is cheese of the highest order, I can't imagine a DM not threatening to kick a player out for attempting this unless they were told 'anything, and I mean anything, goes', in which case you really should play Pun Pun.

Odds are he's using Loredrake+the Greater Dragonic Reservoir to get improved Sorcerer casting, then using Heighten Spell+Versatile Spellcaster to mimic having 2nd level spells. This does qualify him, but is actually more unstable and more house-rule dependent than the Wizard method I just mentioned.

I don't have whatever book Lore Drake is in, which is saying something, but both methods are house-rule dependant to work at all. And you can't use the greater draconic rite of passage until you have 6 HD, so that method won't allow you to enter MT at 6th.

No matter which method was intended, the build as listed does not work.

[Sinfire Titan]

Ok, it's not in the FAQ, like I thought, but still... this is cheese of the highest order, I can't imagine a DM not threatening to kick a player out for attempting this unless they were told 'anything, and I mean anything, goes', in which case you really should play Pun Pun.

This method is fairly tame unless you start off at 1st-3rd levels. It's extremely overpowered at those levels, but once you get past that point it really tappers off. Remember that the spell slots granted by Focused Specialist must be from your specialty school, thus limiting their versatility.

The way the effects are worded, it works by RAW without house rules at all. Loredrake, however, requires a tedious interpretation of the effect for it to apply to Dragonwrought Kobolds, and can be negated outright if the DM simply says the Age Categories of a kobold are purely fluff, and have no bearing on actual rules (this also prevents him from taking Epic level feats a 1st level).

I don't have whatever book Lore Drake is in, which is saying something, but both methods are house-rule dependant to work at all. And you can't use the greater draconic rite of passage until you have 6 HD, so that method won't allow you to enter MT at 6th.

Loredrake was only intended for True Dragons to receive the benefit. They didn't realize that dragonwrought kobolds technically count as True Dragons due to a specific passage in the Draconomicon. That passage states that a dragon is considered to be a True Dragon if it has 12 Age Categories, which Races of the Dragon gives to Dragonwrought Kobolds.

Many people are against this. It effectively gives anyone a level of Sorcerer with no other strings attached.

the build as listed does not work.

This part I agree with. Sage ruled against Heighten Spell qualifying you as being able to cast 2nd level spells, so the above build does not work. However, the Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist method does work, and requires no house rules (only a very careful reading of the English language).

I prove the above in this thread. Relevant post:

Books required: SRD, Races of the Dragon, Complete Mage, Complete Arcane, Exemplars of Evil

Stats: Int:17+. All other stats are irrelevant. Except Con.

Flaws: Any two.
Alternate Class Features: Focused Specialist, and your choice on any others.
Feats needed to pull it off: Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought, Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster, and either Improved Init or Scribe Scroll.

How it works:

[sblock=Precocious Apprentice]

Precocious Apprentice

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.

Prerequisites: Int 15 or Cha 15, arcane spellcaster level 1

Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you. You can cast that spell once per day. In effect, you have an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used to cast the chosen spell, and cannot be used for any other purpose. If you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, you must succeed on a caster level check (DC 8) to successfully cast the spell; if you fail, you miscast the spell to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances.

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would.

You also gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.

Special: You can only take this feat as a 1st-level character.

[/sblock]

[sblock=Focused Specialist]

Focused Specialist

Replaces: You lose one spell slot from each level of Wizard spells you can cast. Etc.

Benefit: You can prepare two additional spell slots of your specialty school per spell level each day. The extra spells are in addition to those normally granted to a specialist Wizard.

This benefit doesn't apply to spells gain from classes other than Wizard.

[/sblock]

Ok, due to a loop hole in the wording of PA, a Focused Specialist Wizard with that feat loses the spell slot it grants and receives two spells of his specialty school in its place. Normally, you wouldn't be able to use that slot for anything but casting that one spell, but losing something is not using it, so fair play here. And due to the fact that you now have 2nd level spell slots that aren't granted by bonus spells, you can now cast them freely. And since they are not the slot created by PA, you don't have to make a caster level check to cast them. This is a loophole cause only by a literal interpretation of the English language, and one hell of a loophole.

Again, it only works because of the English Language. That's it. Read through that entire thread (it's only a few posts long) to get the full understanding.

I'm not saying this will fly with most DMs. Hell, anyone in their right mind would tell you no flat-out. But there are some DMs who see the use of this trick. It allows for 8/9 spells on both sides of a Mystic Theurge, provided you also have Arcane Heirophant levels. That's vastly superior to the 8/8 version normally attainable.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

THE BUILD IS LEGAL BY BOTH RAW AND RAI
The feat Versatile Spellcaster allows a 1st level Sorcerer with Heighten Spell to spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a spell heightened to 2nd level, which for all purposes is considered to be a 2nd level spell. This is exactly as WotC intended for the feat to be used. The build has absolutely nothing to do with Precocious Apprentice, which does not work according to WotC. This build used a perfectly legal and legit method of early qualification.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Everyone in this thread needs to read my Sig. Versatile Spellcaster works for qualifying, as does PA+FS. FAQ and CustServ are run by people who must never read the rules to come up with rulings as bad as theirs have been.

The real issue with this build is the +2 LA that it needed to buy off.

[Kurald Galain]

Everyone in this thread needs to read my Sig. Versatile Spellcaster works for qualifying, as does PA+FS.

No it doesn't.

FAQ and CustServ are run by people who must never read the rules to come up with rulings as bad as theirs have been.

Yeah, go for the ad hominems, those are sure to convince people.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No it doesn't.

But Focused Specialist trades that chancy 2nd-level slot for 2 guaranteed slots of your specialist school.

Yeah, go for the ad hominems, those are sure to convince people.

Their rulings are confusing, often incorrect, and occasionally self-contradictory. Look at the answers to Time Stands Still:

Spoiler

Show

Q When using the high level diamond mind manuver Time stands still, you can make two full attack actions in a row seperate from each other. Suppose you normally get 5 attacks, three from base attack and two more from two weapon and improved two weapon fighting. You use Raging Mongoose to gain two attacks with each weapon at your highest base attack, this ability lasts for one round. Does Raging mongoose let you make two extra attacks with each weapon for each full attack action, or does the limit of two attacks for each weapon apply only for the first full attack.

A You can make two extra attacks for each full attack action that you make with this combination. So you would get the extra attacks in the first full attack action, and get them again in the second full attack action.

Q I read on the boards that a forum member asked you how Raging/Dancing Mongoose worked with Time Stand Still, and you replied that you get the extra attacks per full attack action, so you would get double the attacks from Raging/Dancing mongoose using Time Stand Still.
Now I looked the maneuvers over in Tome of Battle, and I can't figure out why that is. The maneuver states that it last until end of turn and you get some extra attacks per weapon wielded (max of 2 or 4), nowhere in the maneuver is it said that the extra attacks come per full attack action. If you read about being hasted, it very specificly says you get the extra attack as part of a full attack action and therefore you will get an extra hasted attack from using Time Stand Still. But I can't see why you would get double bonus from Dancing/Raging Mongoose.

So my question is, why did you rule it that way? Have I overlooked something or?

A Hmm.. Not sure who answered it that way, but they must have misunderstood the question! You could initiate Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose, and Raging Mongoose would give you four extra attacks that turn, two with each weapon you wield! But only four. not Eight. You would be able to choose which full attack action to apply the extra attacks to during your turn.

And the best part is that the second answer is still wrong.

[Chronos]

Yet another way of qualifying for Mystic Theurge early is to take the feat Alternate Source Spell, which requires that you be able to cast both arcane and divine spells, and lets you count a divine spell as arcane or vice-versa. So after Druid 3/Sorcerer 1, you have a 2nd-level divine spell (say, Summon Nature's Ally II), and also a 2nd-level arcane spell (Summon Nature's Ally II cast as arcane). This is also a handy feat for a theurge-type to have anyway, as (among other benefits) it allows you to cast your sor/wiz spells in armor, and (if you have cleric levels or some other source of Turn Undead) apply divine metamagic to them.

And another method of qualifying is to be an Illumian with the Krau power sigil and the Improved Sigil: Krau feat, which lets you heighten two spells of your choice by a single level for free. With this method, you can enter Mystic Theurge at the minimum level the skill requirements allow, with (say) cleric 1/X 1/wizard 1 (where X can be anything, including more wizard or cleric), and choose Color Spray and Command as your Krau heightened spells. This won't help your kobold, of course, but I mention it here for sake of completeness.

[ericgrau]

The build is cheesy even if legal, and that's questionable. Don't allow early entry into mystic theurge.

For that matter, IMO anything use a class combo to pull a "trick" belongs in theoretical optimization, not in real role-playing games. "And then Sir Lancelot didst dip into an obscure & seemingly unrelated prestige class, so he couldst qualify early for Knight of the Round Table and still maintain almost full BAB. Thus he was the strongest knight of them all."

[BlueWizard]

I'll just say no.

[Triaxx]

Looking at it, there appears to be some Level adjustment not taken into account, thus providing an extra pair of HD.

[Dixieboy]

No it doesn't.

Explain this part to me because it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd level spell,
What does he mean by chance?

[Eldariel]

Looking at it, there appears to be some Level adjustment not taken into account, thus providing an extra pair of HD.

It's most likely bought off.

[Os1ris09]

wow i guess i brought a good thread to discuss.

no i do not hate my dm I was just wondering if this build even worked. In that regard though can someone post an actual build similar to this that COULD work as RAW or RAI.

Thanks GITP for helping me understand and I thought something funny was going on in that build.

[Baalthazaq]

I DMed a game and allowed early entry into the Mystic Theurge class with precocious apprentice.

Didn't turn out too badly at all. It turned mystic theurge from "Hmm. Cool" to "Oh! Nice." but not "OMG brokenz!!!!!"

I think the reason for this is that it is that

1) You need to really heavily split your stats into two highs, which in a point buy system guarantees you don't have enough for bugger all else, and you still take penalties on Save DCs for all your spells.

2) Your higher level spells are your Cleric Spells. You still get more one shot power out of a pure mage.

3) The feat itself is poor after early levels. Which equates to (in a high level game), basically a very cool feat that says "Take M-theurge 2 levels early". It's a nice feat, but there are nicer out there that equate.

Nature's Bond for example on a Druid 1/Ranger 8 gives you the same Animal Companion as a Druid 9.

There are also plenty of feats that do things like combine Rogue Sneak Attack progression into Swashbuckler. I think this is basically an effect on par with that.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, for Mystic Theurge to be decent, early entry needs to be allowed. Otherwise it's just crap compared to either straight caster, especially right after entering.

[Os1ris09]

Okay so going off the Original build posted would this type work?

Human Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Thuerge 4/ Arcane Heirophant 10 / Mystic Thuerge 2

Feats:
1st: Divine Metamagic
human: Extend Spell
Flaw: Precocious Apprentice
Flaw: Versatile Caster
3rd: Persist Spell
6th:
9th:
12th: free
15th: free
18th: free

Focus school: Conjuration
Banned Schools: Necromancy (considered evil in campaign ), Abjuration, (your choice)

Focused Specialist class feature

Also on another note. What in the world is Phrenic and where is it as far as books go?

[Dr_Horrible]

1) Phrenic is SRD and from Expanded Psionics Handbook.

2) No reason to ban necromancy the school just because the undead part is evil. No reason for the school to ever be considered evil.

3) No, build not legal. Arcane Heirophant only works for Wizard/Druid Theurges. And you'd need to look up the actual class, because it does more then just generically advance both sides like MT.

4) You'd need to take level 1 as a Wizard to take Precocious Apprentice, better to take Alternative Spell source anyway. "Divine Metamagic" is not a feat, it needs a qualifier, and it needs to be a feat you already have. Versatile caster only works for spontaneous casters. Of which you have no levels of.

[BlueWizard]

I'll vote no....

[Waspinator]

I will MAKE it legal!

Sorry, it had to be said.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That last build is not legal, because Arcane Heirophant requires Trackless Step, which you can only get from Druid 3, Wildrunner 1, and maybe a few other prestige classes. Plus as per errata Divine Metamagic requires that you have the selected metamagic feat before you take it, and Versatile Spellcaster only works with spontaneous spellcasters.

A Sorcerer 1 with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell can cast 2nd level spells by both RAW and RAI, and will qualify early for prestige classes. He may spend two 1st level spell slots to cast any spell he knows Heightened to 2nd level, therefore he can cast 2nd level spells.

A Beguiler 1, Warmage 1, or Dread Necromancer 1 with Versatile Spellcaster can cast 2nd level spells by both RAW and RAI, and will qualify early for prestige classes. He can spend two 1st level spell slots to cast any 2nd level spell he knows, thus having access to casting 2nd level spells gives him knowledge of all 2nd level spells on his class list, therefore he can cast 2nd level spells. (This is not circular, it is not dependent on prior knowledge of spells of that level to be considered to have access to that level of spells for purposes of acquiring spells known of that level, otherwise they would never gain knowledge their 2nd level or higher spells even from leveling up.)

An Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau will qualify early by RAW, no word on RAI. He may select two spells he can cast and treat them as though they were Heightened by +1 level, therefore they're second level spells which he is able to cast. This works with both arcane and divine spells.

A character with Precocious Apprentice will not qualify early by RAI, though RAW could go either way. He may make a caster level check to attempt to cast a 2nd level spell once/day.

The original build is perfectly legal, though not exactly optimal due to the +2 LA unless it can be bought off. Note that Triaxx was mistaken in saying that a level adjustment grants additional hit dice, as those are two completely different things.

[monty]

Of which you have no levels of.

This made me think of "Live and Let Die."
But if this ever-changing world in which we live in...

[Os1ris09]

okay so what would make this a good and legal build? Please post actual build idea's and why? Thanks GITP

[Heliomance]

3) No, build not legal. Arcane Heirophant only works for Wizard/Druid Theurges. And you'd need to look up the actual class, because it does more then just generically advance both sides like MT.

Incorrect. It pretty much requires Druid to get in, but if you can cheese your way around that, it's a standard +1 level of existing arcane/+1 level of existing divine.

[Dr_Horrible]

Incorrect. It pretty much requires Druid to get in, but if you can cheese your way around that, it's a standard +1 level of existing arcane/+1 level of existing divine.

I am well aware of the rules. See the difference between "works for" and "can advance."

[Heliomance]

However, with some effort, I believe it is possible to get in w/o Druid at all.

[Dr_Horrible]

However, with some effort, I believe it is possible to get in w/o Druid at all.

Yes, if you are willing to give up multiple CLs on both sides, you can get a class that advances both, and oh yeah, has no other class features because you don't have wildshape or AC.

[Callos_DeTerran]

2) No reason to ban necromancy the school just because the undead part is evil. No reason for the school to ever be considered evil.

Debatable, and not for this thread either especially since the OP said it was considered evil in that campaign meaning 'campaign-specific or house-rule'.

I'm moreso curious about why the OP was asking about the legality of a build he wasn't going to use or even in his group.