[3.5] How good is the Spell Point variant?

[Gerbah]

I just ran across this variant in Unearthed Arcana, and was wondering (for those who have played a game that used this or have tried it), how is it? It seems like it could be pretty neat, and helps folks streamline the "spell per day" and "spells prepared" thing, but it seems like it makes Wizards and Sorcerers too similar.

I don't know, it looked interesting, and I tried to search through these forums to get some insight into it, but the search function was having none of that. So offer up your experiences or thoughts if you have any, please.

[Frosty]

It makes Wizards and Clerics even MORE overpowered. Don't do it.

[RandomFellow]

If you do it...my advice is to reduce the # of spell points you get.

Otherwise, everyone is a caster. :P

[Zincorium]

Yeah, the whole 'versatility for the win' thing just gets more absurd.

Spellcasters suddenly get the option of just spamming their most effective spells til the cows come home. If you like point based spellcasting, reflavor the psionics rules, they're much better.

[SurlySeraph]

The thing is, spell points sound like exactly the fluff I want, especially if you use the variant that makes casters fatigued and then exhausted as they cast more. Would just reducing the number of spell points they get by a third or so balance it?

[Xuincherguixe]

I don't think the problem is with the number of points, but the fact that certain spells are a lot stronger than others (even of the same level). And also spells are generally better than powers.

[RandomFellow]

The thing is, spell points sound like exactly the fluff I want, especially if you use the variant that makes casters fatigued and then exhausted as they cast more. Would just reducing the number of spell points they get by a third or so balance it?

More or less, yes.

Still has the inherited balance issues with magic but it is good 'nough. :P

[newbDM]

Yeah, the whole 'versatility for the win' thing just gets more absurd.

Spellcasters suddenly get the option of just spamming their most effective spells til the cows come home. If you like point based spellcasting, reflavor the psionics rules, they're much better.

But remember that this is usually a bad idea, and in my opinion is both a misconception about psionics, and a mistake made by new psionic players. Sure you can waste all your points to use your bigger powers a few more times (the equivalent of dumping all your low to mid spells to get a few more uses of your big ones), but that means you burn through your power points really quickly. And if you know what you are doing, or are a bit more creative, you can do a lot more with smarter use of your powers/power points than simply using a lot of pumped up damage powers.


And yes, that spell variant is basically the psionics rules being stripped of their last mechanical difference.

[Gorbash]

The thing is, spell points sound like exactly the fluff I want, especially if you use the variant that makes casters fatigued and then exhausted as they cast more.

That wouldn't really inconvenience Wizards that much.

[Kylarra]

But remember that this is usually a bad idea, and in my opinion is both a misconception about psionics, and a mistake made by new psionic players. Sure you can waste all your points to use your bigger powers a few more times (the equivalent of dumping all your low to mid spells to get a few more uses of your big ones), but that means you burn through your power points really quickly. And if you know what you are doing, or are a bit more creative, you can do a lot more with smarter use of your powers/power points than simply using a lot of pumped up damage powers.


And yes, that spell variant is basically the psionics rules being stripped of their last mechanical difference.

Of course spellpoints do considerably nerf the aspiring blaster wizard, but who plays those right? So if you want the best use of your spellpoints, you have to go with "proper" use of non-damaging spells.

[Gorbash]

but who plays those right?

Like 90% of the people.

[Morty]

Of course spellpoints do considerably nerf the aspiring blaster wizard, but who plays those right?

A whole bunch of people who either never had the dubious honor of reading TLN's guide or simply don't care?

[RandomFellow]

A whole bunch of people who either never had the dubious honor of reading TLN's guide or simply don't care?

I never played a Blaster Wizard. I also have no clue what TLN's guide is. :P

It is just battlefield control & save or dies are clearly superior to damage...

[Morty]

I never played a Blaster Wizard. I also have no clue what TLN's guide is. :P

It is just battlefield control & save or dies are clearly superior to damage...

And again, a whole bunch of people don't care. Or prefer to defeat enemies with fire rather than clouds. Then again, they probably don't count.
As for the spell points variant, I've never considered using it, but that's because I like the Vancian casting and don't like point-based magic systems.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, a Wizard-10 with an Int of 22 (reasonable at that point, no?) gets 101 spell points. That's.... oh, one spell of each level he can cast for various long-term buffs and utility spells along the way (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th - 25 points), leaving 75 loose points - which works out to eight castings of his highest-level spell, with enough left over for a Gliterdust. If the Wizard fires off two of his highest-level effects each combat, he's got four combats before he runs dry. It gets worse at higher levels. If he's using the lower-level save-or-lose effects (Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, and such), he can spam a LOT of them (with Web and Glitterdust being 2nd level spells, he can give out some 25 of them if he skips the highest-level spells; with Stinking Cloud being 3rd, he can get fifteen of those off, instead).

Oh yeah, and the Sorcerer only gets one single additional casting of his highest level spell compared to the Wizard. Even if the Wizard never scribes a non-free spell into his spellbook, the Wizard is doing a LOT better than the Sorcerer with this variant.

It makes the Sorcerer redundant, and makes the Wizard much more powerful as long as he stays away from damaging effects, and the DM isn't overly fond of endurance runs.

[Radar]

The thing is, spell points sound like exactly the fluff I want, especially if you use the variant that makes casters fatigued and then exhausted as they cast more. Would just reducing the number of spell points they get by a third or so balance it?

The only problem with fatigue variant is, that it can be cured with a single spell (like restoration) - hello infinite mana! It's RAW and explicitly stated on SRD. I can't imagine, what were they thinking.

[Mike_G]

It does cut down on the narcolepsy a bit, since it's never, "Ok, I know it's only 9 AM, but I already cast Dispell Magic today, so we'll just camp here for eight hours..."

I've never seen a Vancian Wizard not need to "stop for the night" halfway through a game day to prepare the one perfect spell. At least the spell point wizard only has to stop when he's low on overall magic points.

I've always like point based magic systems, and hated Vancian casting.

Fighter: Wow! That was great! Do it again.

Wizard: Sorry. Only prepared it once.

Fighter: You only cast one spell today, and I've seen you do much more powerful stuff. You can't be exhausted.

Wizard. It's not that. I just can't cast that spell again. I could cast a different spell, one that is of no use right now. To cast it again I must prepare it.

Fighter: What do you mean "prepare." You say two words, and sprinkle that dust stuff. You outta dust?

Wizard. No, I'm not "out of dust," I need to refocus my mystical energies by studying my tome of magic.

Fighter: You forget the words? 'Cause I think they sounded like "Aste-Hay"

Wizard: I did not forget. I just need to prepare myself to cast again. You'll just have to wave you pointy metal stick with the benefit of magic this time.

Fighter: ...You are so lucky I only prepared "dope slap" once and already used it on Fumblefingers Traptripper over here.

[Morty]

I've never seen a Vancian Wizard not need to "stop for the night" halfway through a game day to prepare the one perfect spell. At least the spell point wizard only has to stop when he's low on overall magic points.

Of course, with spell-point based system, a wizard feels little incentive to cast anything but one perfect spell. Aside from the game looking like a copy of Diablo, of course. And that wizard can somehow only knows how to cast a dozen of spells.

[Jack_Simth]

It does cut down on the narcolepsy a bit, since it's never, "Ok, I know it's only 9 AM, but I already cast Dispell Magic today, so we'll just camp here for eight hours..."

I've never seen a Vancian Wizard not need to "stop for the night" halfway through a game day to prepare the one perfect spell. At least the spell point wizard only has to stop when he's low on overall magic points.

What, you've never seen a wizard take advantage of the "leave a spell slot unprepared" bit they can do? Curious.

[Kantur]

It does cut down on the narcolepsy a bit, since it's never, "Ok, I know it's only 9 AM, but I already cast Dispell Magic today, so we'll just camp here for eight hours..."

I've never seen a Vancian Wizard not need to "stop for the night" halfway through a game day to prepare the one perfect spell. At least the spell point wizard only has to stop when he's low on overall magic points.

I've always like point based magic systems, and hated Vancian casting.

Fighter: Wow! That was great! Do it again.

Wizard: Sorry. Only prepared it once.

Fighter: You only cast one spell today, and I've seen you do much more powerful stuff. You can't be exhausted.

Wizard. It's not that. I just can't cast that spell again. I could cast a different spell, one that is of no use right now. To cast it again I must prepare it.

Fighter: What do you mean "prepare." You say two words, and sprinkle that dust stuff. You outta dust?

Wizard. No, I'm not "out of dust," I need to refocus my mystical energies by studying my tome of magic.

Fighter: You forget the words? 'Cause I think they sounded like "Aste-Hay"

Wizard: I did not forget. I just need to prepare myself to cast again. You'll just have to wave you pointy metal stick with the benefit of magic this time.

Fighter: ...You are so lucky I only prepared "dope slap" once and already used it on Fumblefingers Traptripper over here.

I believe, but could be wrong, that in Vance's novels, wizards actually pre-cast most of each spell and retain it mostly cast until they use it, at which point they finish casting the spell with the appropriate components.
I think it's also why by the RAW in AD&D it took something like ten minutes per spell level of each spell to prepare it until it was cast...

[Morty]

I believe, but could be wrong, that in Vance's novels, wizards actually pre-cast most of each spell and retain it mostly cast until they use it, at which point they finish casting the spell with the appropriate components.

This is also the case in 3rd edition D&D. It's just that most people ignore it while bashing the system.

Prepared Spell Retention

Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind.

[Kantur]

I was fairly sure it was still the case, just without the x minutes per spell per spell level, but it's been a good few months since I played 3.5, let alone read the descriptions of spell preparation.
But thanks, quotes are always good
Even if I really should be working instead of here...

[Draz74]

The Spell Point Variant is a sloppy attempt to slap the benefits of the Psionics system onto the magic system without doing any real work to make it work right.

Just use real psionics mechanics and re-flavor things (and create new psionic powers that mimic "missing" spells) to make them "magic" instead of "psionics." This is a lot of work, but less work than making the Spell Point Variant for magic actually work right.

[RandomFellow]

And again, a whole bunch of people don't care. Or prefer to defeat enemies with fire rather than clouds. Then again, they probably don't count.
As for the spell points variant, I've never considered using it, but that's because I like the Vancian casting and don't like point-based magic systems.

Then they are really bad roleplayers if they are picking a Wizard...

The guy with 18 Int is really going to pick the suboptimal spells?

Really?

[Mike_G]

What, you've never seen a wizard take advantage of the "leave a spell slot unprepared" bit they can do? Curious.

Actually, I haven't.

Now, I don't play Wizards, because choosing the daily spell list is as much fun for me as Algebra homework, with the added bonus of being able to choose completely wrong (so, more like picking stocks, I suppose) so I usually play the guys exasperated that we need to stop for eight hours outside every other door in the dungeon. Since we're all AD&D grognards, maybe nobody's used to that option.

Even an empty slot is no use on the fly, though, so I can see why a player would want a spell "loaded and ready."

I kinda hate the Vancian fluff. That is more like playing Magic Cards than any newer edition of D&D. I like the spell point fluff, or the Sorcerer method. You know some spells, you have a finite amount of power, stronger spells cost more power, cast the spells you want until you run dry.

[Morty]

Then they are really bad roleplayers if they are picking a Wizard...

The guy with 18 Int is really going to pick the suboptimal spells?

Really?

Okay, let's get this straight. Are you seriously suggesting that picking the spells you like to use instead of the most optimized ones is bad roleplaying? Seeing how I'm currently playing a wizard with unoptimized spell selection, I find it somewhat insulting.

You know some spells, you have a finite amount of power, stronger spells cost more power, cast the spells you want until you run dry.

And this way, you end up with a magic system completely identical to dozens of games, both tabletop and computer ones.

[Kylarra]

Then they are really bad roleplayers if they are picking a Wizard...

The guy with 18 Int is really going to pick the suboptimal spells?

Really?

I'd uh argue the other way. Min/maxing is a better example of bad roleplaying than choosing spells you like.

[streakster]

Okay, let's get this straight, okay? Are you seriously suggesting that picking the spells you like to use instead of the most optimized ones is bad roleplaying? Seeing how I'm currently playing a wizard with unoptimized spell selection, I find it somewhat insulting.

Well, yeah. Because you're saying "The most logical course of action would be for him to cast X, but he'll cast Y instead, because I like Y."

Smacks of metagaming to me!

[Mike_G]

Then they are really bad roleplayers if they are picking a Wizard...

The guy with 18 Int is really going to pick the suboptimal spells?

Really?

No, they are bad optimizers.

It's a fantasy game. There no prize for winning. In fact, there is no "winning" as such.

If I want to play a swashbuckling swordsman, that means I don't take the Spiked Chain. If I fantasize about blasting my enemies with fire, I don't take Solid Fog.

When WotC starts paying me for experience point earned, or lingerie models start dating the guy with the most optimal build, instead of rock stars and athletes, I'll worry about optimizing. Until then, I'll worry about paying the character I want.

[mostlyharmful]

I'd uh argue the other way. Min/maxing is a better example of bad roleplaying than choosing spells you like.

Yeah but Min/Maxing your build from an in character perspective involves levels of dedication to a psychotic lifestyle that make it kind of unbelievable but once you're a wizard in an adventurering band then you know, you know you're jumping into life and death situations on a regular basis. In that sort of environment it makes sense to be as powerful in your selection as is possible, ie you pick the best combos of spells because that's what will minimize your chance of dying horribly. In the face of that it makes sense that you spend a little time contemplating with your genius level int what is the best way to stay alive which is optimized spell choice to some extent at least. If you have a genius fighting for their life with magic missle and flaming sphere it breaks versimilitude quite a lot for me.