Saving throws are too probable

[shadow_archmagi]

Maybe I'm just terrible at buffing save DCs, but it seems to me that it's very rare for the save DC to be 20 above the enemy's save modifiers. (Our games rarely get up above level 10 or so) Come to think of it, it's pretty rare for the save DC to be above 20 to begin with. (10 base, +3 for spell level, +5 for casting stat, +1 for feat still nets me only 19).

So, say I want to use Hold Person. Even a completely average 1st level character has a 5% chance to escape every 6 seconds. Statistically, I'll be lucky if he's still tied up at the end of the second minute.

Thematically, it seems wrong that a 10th level wizard should have to blow his entire 3rd level array just to keep a single commoner busy for ten minutes, much less a bear or something.

What's the solution here? Or am I just wrong?

[Eldariel]

Well see, Hold Person isn't meant to hold Commoners at bay for 10 minutes. It's meant to hold a raging Barbarian at bay for 1-2 rounds while your allies hack him to pieces. Simply, you're using the wrong spell here. If you want for something to last 10 minutes, use a long duration spell.

Also, you underestimate the casting stat. A Gray Elf (and a dozen other LA +0 races, but Gray Elf is the only Core LA +0 option for Wizard) can start with 20 Int. Level 4 adds 1 point, level 8 another. Middle-Aged would add another one giving you 22 on level 4. Additionally, +2 Int Headband adds +2, giving you +7 to DCs from stat. +6 for Middle-Aged Human on 5, +5 for standard Humans (+6 on 8, +7 if using Fox's Cunning).


But really, one failed save is enough to screw someone over. Think Glitterdust - a failed save blinds and the DC is something sick like 17-18. Most characters on that level don't have more than +3-+4 to Will-saves (save Clerics & Druids which you'd obviously target with Web instead) and you can target multiple creatures with Glitterdust. That gives them like 30% chance if lucky for succeeding in their save (that's without Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus and for a young Human with +2 item), and there're multiple saving throws, so chances are ~3/4th of the targets you hit get blinded. And that's without trying.

I'd almost say saving throws are too hard. PCs are just bound to fail some bad ones that might screw them over big time (think Flesh to Stone or such) unless you're a Cleric/Druid.

[tyckspoon]

As mentioned you're just using that particular spell wrong. If you want to get somebody out of your hair with a 3rd level spell, try Deep Slumber or Stinking Cloud. If you must use Hold Person, walk up to them and inflict a non-lethal Coup de Grace. Or drop down a spell level and use Web, Blindness/Deafness, or Glitterdust.

18-19 really is not a bad save DC for 5th level. Check out the CR5 monsters- almost all of them have a better than 50% chance of failing on their good saves.

[Crow]

I'm so sick of Grey Elves. Every "example" wizard in every thread is a grey elf.

Remember that you can also use the heighten spell feat to cast lower level spells as higher ones. This boosts the save DC also. This is usually a lot better for sorcerers, but there is nothing stopping a wizard from using it too if she absolutely must have a specific spell effect.

[JackMage666]

I'm so sick of Grey Elves. Every "example" wizard in every thread is a grey elf.

Remember that you can also use the heighten spell feat to cast lower level spells as higher ones. This boosts the save DC also. This is usually a lot better for sorcerers, but there is nothing stopping a wizard from using it too if she absolutely must have a specific spell effect.

When searching for mathematical evidence, people optimize. Grey Elves are an optimal race for Wizards, due to +0 LA and the +2 Int.

Though I agree, I think they should use Humans, as they're a good baseline.

[Ent]

Even low level casters have access to debuff spells.

A Clr 3 can Bane and Doom to Cause Fear, a Web or Entangle can set up targets for Reflex save spells, etc.

[Chronos]

You do know that even for an epic-level archmage with a 50 Int casting tenth-level spells, a first-level commoner still has a 5% chance of saving, right? A natural 20 on the roll always saves, no matter what the modifier or DC is.

Even low level casters have access to debuff spells.

A Clr 3 can Bane and Doom to Cause Fear, a Web or Entangle can set up targets for Reflex save spells, etc.

Except that all of those debuffs also offer saves. If you're going to cast one spell with a save to soften up the target for some other spell with a save, then you'd be better off just casting the second spell twice.

[Tempest Fennac]

Crow, would it help if I mentioned my Fenneckin homebrew race in Wizard threads to counteract Grey Elves? Being serious, I see Hold Person as the sort of spell you'd use to stop an enemy with low Will saves so that an ally can kill them on their next action (targeting enemy's weak saves is the key with these sorts of spells).

[Hawriel]

The OP was asking about spell saves and how to make them stronger. So naturaly most posters start picking apart his example and how sub obtimal it is.

So your right. A 20th level wizard casting a 9th level spell with a int of 21 (Yes I know you can boost INT with items thats not the point) has a spell save of 24. Well there you go a save over 20. But not by much. Any character using its good save will make it. There are feats for casting spells at a higher level and focusing which adds to the save DC. Specializing in a school does this for example.

I do think you right in questioning saves. DCs against PCs are generaly higher, player DCs usualy lag behind.

[MeklorIlavator]

Well, they're mostly saying that his example has some problems, plus he's making assumptions about the spells. They're trying to show that when using spells in the way they're meant to, that it does work.

[sonofzeal]

Well... I think this raises a fair question. I've played little over level 15, and my characters are a bit more defensive than most, but I routinely see saving throws over 20, occasionally as high as 25. In other words, even a fairly optimized DC (call it 8 for spell level, 8 for Int/Cha, 2 misc) has only a 15% chance of success. I don't know if that's typical, but it seems to imply that spells with saving throws start off at maybe 75% reliability and descend from there to maybe about 25% over 20 levels. Does that mesh with anyone else's experience?

[Riffington]

Any character using its good save will make it.

But casters typically target poor saves, not strong saves.
The question should be: if a caster uses a save-or-lose at range on a non-Paladin non-monk character of the same level, what should be the chances of it working?

I'd like to claim a priori that the chances should be 35%. (similar to "how many rounds should it take an archer to kill a wizard who has partial cover", which should be about 3)

1st level wizard casts sleep (DC 15) on a fighter (save 0): chance of working is actually 75%, which is much higher than my a priori 35%.
in SonofZeal's example, not sure why the poor saves are so high. A 15th level rogue has a Fort Save of (5 base + 5 Con + 5 cloak) = 15 if he spends a lot on defense. His save DC given is 28, or a 65% - still quite high.

[Eldariel]

Well... I think this raises a fair question. I've played little over level 15, and my characters are a bit more defensive than most, but I routinely see saving throws over 20, occasionally as high as 25. In other words, even a fairly optimized DC (call it 8 for spell level, 8 for Int/Cha, 2 misc) has only a 15% chance of success. I don't know if that's typical, but it seems to imply that spells with saving throws start off at maybe 75% reliability and descend from there to maybe about 25% over 20 levels. Does that mesh with anyone else's experience?

All saving throws over 20? The idea is to target their weak saves. But yeah, let's talk level 15:
DC 10+8+Int+2

Int is: 20+3+6 and either Middle-Aged or +1 Int book consumed. Gives us a total of DC 30. A character with poor base saves has saving throw base of +5, and ~+4 from stat, +6 resistance. Total save bonus of +15, meaning there's a 70% of failing the save. Of course, this doesn't account for spells that lower saves or some such. But still, as long as you aren't trying to debuff Paladin 2/Sorcerer X Gish, you should be able to find a weak save. Not to mention, much of that save comes from item - one Chained Greater Dispel Magic and we're talking about miniscule saves.

But it's not usually really worth buffing the save DC beyond that as it tends to take a lot of resources.

[ericgrau]

When searching for mathematical evidence, people optimize. Grey Elves are an optimal race for Wizards, due to +0 LA and the +2 Int.

Though I agree, I think they should use Humans, as they're a good baseline.

And they should use the average rolled high stat: 15. If you have an 18, you're either saying, "I'm talking about something way above the norm" or "Our DM gives us much higher stats than usual to make the game easier on it because we need it" or "our DM thinks we'll be happier if he gives us stats like candy" (but the monsters will have to be harder too, which means they have higher saves anyway).

So a 4th level wizard should have a 16 int to get a glitterdust save DC of 15 (or 16-17 with feats), which about half of monsters can make.

At level 15 his int is 15+3+6=24 (+7 mod). His save DCs are 25 for 8th level spells, or 27 with feats. The average CR 18 BBEG has saves of 20/16/19 (fort/ref/will) and 224 HP, while a more common CR 13 monster has average saves of 14/10/12 and 167 HP. The BBEG makes 75% of his fort/will saves and 50% of his reflex saves, while the common monster (in a group) fails 75%. At this level a lot of monsters have SR too, which typically stops about 50% of targetted spells. The BBEG's HP also means that you're better off firing empowered maximized scorching rays (93 average damage) or the like rather than SoD's, and that's not even counting the damage your allies are doing (which doesn't stack so well with SoD's). Against the group of CR 13's an AoE debuff heightened to 8th level is devastating if you want to expend it, or even the non-heightened one could knock out half of them. Still very nice.

[Chronos]

Well, they're mostly saying that his example has some problems, plus he's making assumptions about the spells. They're trying to show that when using spells in the way they're meant to, that it does work.

This is another part of the problem: Why should spells that offer a saving throw work all of the time? Isn't the whole idea that they don't?

And even at that, good saving throws scale at about the same rate as spell DCs: Increasing by one point per two levels, and based on a single ability mod. So a spellcaster targeting a good save should have an approximately steady chance for success. Then you consider that most spellcasters have a choice of spells, and can usually hit the weak save.

[ericgrau]

If we take dragons as an example, their will save is usually only a couple points lower than their fort save and they have a million immunities anyway. Reflex saves are significantly lower for dragons (and on average), but reflex SoL's like resilient sphere or wall of stone aren't too helpful except sometimes as an escape tactic or against groups. But single target SoL's instead of AoE's are kind of a waste against a group. So "targetting a weak save" is kinda misleading. It only helps a little. Dragons in particular tend to have high fort & will saves (and not too shabby reflex saves) and a million immunities, making 95% of SoD's fall flat against them. Against other monsters, it seems more balanced (see previos post), but will save still may not vary too much from fort.

[Flickerdart]

If you're looking down the barrel of a loaded dragon, or a Monk or anything else with good saves all across the board, you can always use either spells with no save (Orbs of X metamagicked unto infinity, Enervation, and suchlike) or spells which don't care about the save (Web still has an effect, at least when it's still relevant). Save or X spells are only for when there is a more reliable chance of X than there is of Save.

[kjones]

Let me get this straight. Your problem is that sometimes spells with saving throws sometimes don't work?

If it bothers you that much, there are spells without saves, and there are ways to boost save DCs, and there are ways to lower your enemy's saves. Mix, match, apply as desired.

[Talya]

The human sorceress I'm playing at level 16 (not a particularly high-magic item campaign, either) currently casts her highest level spell (level 7, she's multiclassed 2 bard for a PrC requirement) at DC 28. If she's deprived of gear, that drops to DC 25 (Cloak of Beauty +6 is not that expensive, not that our DM lets us buy gear on demand. The party crafter made it for her.) If it's an enchantment, that goes up to DC31 (28 naked). If she were single classed, these would be level 8 spells and therefore +1 higher. At level 20 her level 9 spell would be DC31 (34 for enchantments.)

I just don't see that PC save DCs are all that low.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Yes, .95^20 =~ .35

That's math. Why are you trying to use a spell intended for short-duration combat immobilization (hold person) outside of combat? Your problem, overall, seems to be only with hold person and the fact you get a save every round. If that bugs you, just remove that part - it won't affect the spell's deadliness all that much (certainly every hold person spell in combat is followed by a quick coup de grace on the same or next round anyway?).

DC31 (28 naked)

Ah, Sunites.

[Dr_Horrible]

And they should use the average rolled high stat: 15. If you have an 18, you're either saying, "I'm talking about something way above the norm" or "Our DM gives us much higher stats than usual to make the game easier on it because we need it" or "our DM thinks we'll be happier if he gives us stats like candy" (but the monsters will have to be harder too, which means they have higher saves anyway).

Or, you live in the crazy land of Point Buy, where you can actually design your stats in a way that allows you to play the character you want to play, like every other RPG worth playing.

But yeah, dealing with reality is less fun then insulting everyone that doesn't share your values.

[Eldariel]

And they should use the average rolled high stat: 15. If you have an 18, you're either saying, "I'm talking about something way above the norm" or "Our DM gives us much higher stats than usual to make the game easier on it because we need it" or "our DM thinks we'll be happier if he gives us stats like candy" (but the monsters will have to be harder too, which means they have higher saves anyway).

No, mostly it just is like stating "our DM uses point buy". Casters don't need Cha/Wis/Int (the two non-casting ones) or Str so they can afford an 18 on point buy. Also, if you read all the "help with characters"-thread, you'll notice they're almost invariably rolled with insane stats which leads me to believe a ton of rerolling is a common practice. So the players rolling tend to roll until they get nutty stats and more experienced players use point buy anyways. Either way, the 18 is there.

[aje8]

Yah... +1 to Point-Buy FTW.

Moving on, just noting here but there are many really frickin good no-save spells. Enervation any1?

Dragons should also not be used as an example for anything. Dragons get inexplicably huge buffs for their CR and compared to other characters in general because Wizards is like OMG DRAGONS!! RAWR for no apparent reason. They're really not a good example.

[monty]

Dragons should also not be used as an example for anything. Dragons get inexplicably huge buffs for their CR and compared to other characters in general because Wizards is like OMG DRAGONS!! RAWR for no apparent reason. They're really not a good example.

Well, the game is called Dungeons & Dragons. If dragons were weak, that wouldn't make much sense.

[sonofzeal]

Int is: 20+3+6 and either Middle-Aged or +1 Int book consumed. Gives us a total of DC 30. A character with poor base saves has saving throw base of +5, and ~+4 from stat, +6 resistance. Total save bonus of +15, meaning there's a 70% of failing the save. Of course, this doesn't account for spells that lower saves or some such. But still, as long as you aren't trying to debuff Paladin 2/Sorcerer X Gish, you should be able to find a weak save. Not to mention, much of that save comes from item - one Chained Greater Dispel Magic and we're talking about miniscule saves.

Be that as it may, for most lvl 20 characters I've played it's usually non-obvious what their weakest save is. A multiclassed Dwarven Defender / Deepwarden is likely to have Will save through the roof despite looking like a Fighter, and will likely be wearing light armor which is a warning sign against Ref. And a Barbarian tripmonkey who dipped Factotum for that tasty Int bonus (and possibly Rogue for SA, since BAB isn't important for tripping) is going to have a surprisingly good Ref save, and a healthy Will bonus while Raging, as well as a killer Fort save.

There's also all the hundreds of options out there that make even the weak save powerful. Paladin does it, but so does Binder, or the Diamond Mind school, or Divine Mind, or Marshal, or Monk dips, or any number of other options. Ref saves can be more or less balanced by high hitpoints or energy resistances, and Will saves can be almost ignored if you gain immunity to Mind-Affecting (not hard at high level). And almost none of that stuff is immediately evident to the observer.

In practice, sometimes you can guess what the weakest save is, but usually it's a rock/paper/scissors where, even if you through your most powerful spell at their weakest save, and their weakest save is legitimately weak, and you're pretty darn optimized for DCs, you've still got a 30% chance of failure. Fun times.

[Eldariel]

As a rule, hit Reflex for heavy armor types, Will for light armor ones and Fort for the non-armored. Works very much of the time, unless you roll your Knowledge (which, let's face it, as a Wizard you always should). Yes, there're exceptions when that doesn't work, but how often you fail your Knowledge and run into a character whose weak save is non-obvious? Not often, to be sure.

[Riffington]

In practice, sometimes you can guess what the weakest save is, but usually it's a rock/paper/scissors where, even if you through your most powerful spell at their weakest save, and their weakest save is legitimately weak, and you're pretty darn optimized for DCs, you've still got a 30% chance of failure.

What do you think the chance of failure ought to be? How many rounds does it take one of those foes to take you out (assuming you are at range, have Greater mirror image, contingency, etc. up but that they have bypassed your most paranoid Batman defenses)

[RebelRogue]

If anything, I think it's too easy for casters to target a weak save and/or buff the DC into the stratosphere, especially when the consequences are often as dire as it is.

I remember the time, when Saves were static target numbers (determined by class and level). Back then (Save or Suck) spells with saves were usually something you only bothered with when it came to low-level foes. The high-level ones made it just about every time. Not saying that's a great scenario, but it has at least some appeal when compared to the rocket tag of high-level 3.5, IMO.

[Dr_Horrible]

Be that as it may, for most lvl 20 characters I've played it's usually non-obvious what their weakest save is. A multiclassed Dwarven Defender / Deepwarden is likely to have Will save through the roof despite looking like a Fighter, and will likely be wearing light armor which is a warning sign against Ref. And a Barbarian tripmonkey who dipped Factotum for that tasty Int bonus (and possibly Rogue for SA, since BAB isn't important for tripping) is going to have a surprisingly good Ref save, and a healthy Will bonus while Raging, as well as a killer Fort save.

There's also all the hundreds of options out there that make even the weak save powerful. Paladin does it, but so does Binder, or the Diamond Mind school, or Divine Mind, or Marshal, or Monk dips, or any number of other options. Ref saves can be more or less balanced by high hitpoints or energy resistances, and Will saves can be almost ignored if you gain immunity to Mind-Affecting (not hard at high level). And almost none of that stuff is immediately evident to the observer.

In practice, sometimes you can guess what the weakest save is, but usually it's a rock/paper/scissors where, even if you through your most powerful spell at their weakest save, and their weakest save is legitimately weak, and you're pretty darn optimized for DCs, you've still got a 30% chance of failure. Fun times.

That's all great, but here's something crazy:

What about monsters. Most of the things I face are monsters. They are usually pretty easy to figure out. As someone who buffs saves hardcore, I am aware of what save modifiers can be, but the thing is, if you have even one competent Warblade in your party he can solo any Paladins, Monk Dips, Marshals, ect you face. So that's not really a big deal. And the rest of the time, you are looking at much higher DCs then the OP gave examples, since you should at least be able to match the DCs of outsiders of your CR, and you really should be better with your high level ones.

First number is a Human with an 18, (Or Grey Elf with a 16, since everyone knows that all Wizards are grey elves, right Crow,) second number is a two age category grey elf (who dumps con and goes necropolitian as soon as possible.) Add feats and such to that.

level 1: DC 15-17
level 5: DC 18-20
level 9: DC 22-24
level 13: DC 25-27
level 17: DC 28-30
level 20: DC 31-33

I'm not seeing the problem of having your DCs not go up with level.

[Chronos]

Quoth Talya:

If it's an enchantment, that goes up to DC31 (28 naked).

I thought your characters were supposed to be more effective naked?