[D&D 3.5] Input appreciated: Fighter / Wizard / Abjurant Champion Gish

[Will_Shakespear]

Hi there,

i'm workin on a gish char right now.

This is my current build (Level 12). What would you guys suggest for levels 13+, what level 15 feat (lvl 18 will be Slashing Flurry from PHBII)? Thanks for your input!

Race: Human
Classes: Fighter 4 / Abjurer 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Cleric 1
HD: 4d10+4 plus 2d4+2 plus 1d8+1 plus 5d10+5
HP: 81
INI: +4
Speed: 30
AC: 10 (T 10, FF 10)
BAB / Grapple: +10 / +17
Attack: +1 Large Keen Greatsword +21 / +16 (3d6+15, 17-20, x2) or +1 Large Composite Longbow +11 / +6 (2d6+5, x3)
SA: Law Devoted Power Attack (+1 Large Keen Greatsword +16 / +11 [3d6+35, 17-20, x2]), Arcane Strike
Saves: FORT +11, REF +5, WILL +14
Abilities: STR 24, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 19, WIS 12, CHA 10
Skills: Balance +7, Climb +14, Concentration +16 (+20 Defensive), Jump +17, Knowledge (Arcana) +13, Knowledge (Religion) +13, Ride +5, Speak Language (Common, Celestial, Abyssal, Infernal), Spellcraft +21, Tumble +9.5
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, *Scribe Scroll, Law Devotion (CC), Combat Casting, Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Cleave, Arcane Strike (CW), Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) (PHBII)

Class Features: Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration, Swift Abjuration, Arcane Boost, Martial Arcanist; Focused Specialist (Abjurer); Turn Undead (3/Day)

Buffs: Greater Luminous Armor (Armor Bonus +13, 20 Hours), Luminous Armor (Armor Bonus +10, 20 Hours), Shield (Shield Bonus +9, 20 Minutes), Magic Circle Against Evil (Deflection Bonus +2, 200 Minutes)

Wizard Spells (CL 10) – Prohibited Schools: Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy
Level 0 (4): All
Level 1 (4+3): *Shield, *Alarm, Mage Armor, Identify, Feather Fall
Level 2 (3+3): *Luminous Armor (BoED), *Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Mirror Image
Level 3 (2+3): *Dispel Magic, *Magic Circle Against Evil, Phantom Steed, Displacement, Haste
Level 4 (1+3): *Greater Luminous Armor (BoED), *Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Polymorph

Cleric Spells (CL 1)
Cleric Domain: Good
Domain Spells: Protection from Evil
School: Conjuration
Level 0 (3): All
Level 1 (2+1): *Entropic Shield, *Endure Elements, Detect Undead, Detect Evil, Cure Light Wounds, Lesser Vigor

Possessions: (29.550 gp left at Level 12) Great Swordbow (Size L) (Keen Greatsword +1 / Composite Longbow +1, STR +4), Strongarm Bracers (MIC), Wand of Lesser Restoration (50 Charges), Belt of Giant Strength +4, Amulet of Health +2, Cloak of Resistance +3, Headband of Intellect +2

Cheers

Will

[Gnorman]

If I might ask: what's the level of Cleric for?

[Will_Shakespear]

It is for using the Wand of Lesser Restoration and for getting the Law Devotion a 2nd time / day.
An alternative would be another (wondrous) item, that gives Lesser Restoration 1 / Day (or maybe 2 or 3 times / day, just to be sure). Then i'd drop that cleric level and use the Law Devotion only 1 / Day.

[Eldariel]

It is for using the Wand of Lesser Restoration and for getting the Law Devotion a 2nd time / day.
An alternative would be another (wondrous) item, that gives Lesser Restoration 1 / Day (or maybe 2 or 3 times / day, just to be sure). Then i'd drop that cleric level and use the Law Devotion only 1 / Day.

What're the Fighter-levels for? Wizard-levels grant you ½ BAB and full casting. Fighters grant you full BAB but no casting. Do the math.

Now yes, switching Fighter for Wizard would require either more levels before Abjurant Champion, or an entry PrC. Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 or Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight Rest seem like the basic build you would want to follow. Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 would also work, although it'd be slightly worse in the long run.


I frankly wouldn't go for Melee Weapon Mastery - you get +3 to hit and +4 damage for two feats. Knowledge Devotion alone gives you bigger returns (provided you max your Knowledges, but why wouldn't you?), and Smiting Spell would definitely increase your composite damage output more with other added boons. Metamagic School Focus on whatever school you prefer to Smite with (probably Conjuration as you banned Necromancy) would further rock.

Also, Martial Wizard ACF would buy you an extra feat.


With your present build, I'd finish it off with Sacred Exorcist - normally I'd suggest Eldritch Knight, but you can't really afford the caster level loss seeing you're already losing 5, which is more than normal gish loses over 20. Your next feat should probably be Practiced Spellcaster to make your Greater Magic Weapons/offense do their thing and to make your abjurations last longer.

Oh, and for the Cleric-level, you could either take Arcane Disciple or crossclass UMD. On 12, you have 7 ranks - not the best, but not horrible either. You could ask for Mw. Tool (some kind of essence-focusing amulet or something) for your UMD - if you got that, you'd be 50/50 for activating the Wand each try already.

[Salt_Crow]

Assuming you were not planning to fully optimise the character, I'd suggest heading into, say, Eldritch Knight PrC.

If you were though, I strongly recommend not losing CL for the sake of a few extra feats. Just take 1 level of fighter to qualify for PrCs, and there are plenty of full BAB classes that advance casting to finish off the build after you get 5 levels of abjurant champion.

Also, the two lumnious armour buffs don't stack. You'll only have +13 bonus to AC from Greater Luminous Armour. If my memory serves me correctly, the two LA spells are Sanctified spells which means you don't have to have them in your spellbooks to cast them (you just prepare them) or something along the line.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Note that Abjurant Armor doesn't work with Mage Armor and similar spells, since they're Conjurations. Your AC definitely needs some help, if you're going to stay with the current build you should check out the Armored Mage variant from Complete Mage (p32-33). It will let you cast spells of up to Fighter level +1 in light armor without risking ASF.

I would strongly recommend changing the build. Higher level Wizard spells are better than having Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery, higher level Wizard spells are better than dipping into Cleric for Law Devotion, and with more Wizard levels and Practiced Spellcaster your caster level can be higher than Martial Arcanist could ever make it. Consider the following builds:

Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8: 9th level spells at caster level 20 with Practiced Spellcaster, +18 BAB, 4d4+8d6+1d8+7d10 HP, can wear Mithril Breastplate + Thistledown Suit or +X Twilight Mithril Full Plate + Thistledown Suit without risking ASF. Apart from the very early levels and the loss of Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery, this build is completely superior to what you already have.

Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8: 9th level spells at caster level 20 with Practiced Spellcaster, +16 BAB, 4d4+9d8+7d10 HP, can wear Mithril Breastplate + Thistledown Suit or +X Twilight Mithril Full Plate + Thistledown Suit without risking ASF. Quite a bit different from your current build, but more thematically similar than the above. Note that once you hit Sacred Exorcist 4 and gain Dispel Evil as a spell-like ability you no longer need Dismissal as a spell known to qualify for it. This also gets access to feats like Divine Might and Divine Shield, and can use wands of any Paladin spells as long as your Wisdom score is high enough.

[Chronos]

In addition to its other benefits (it's a pretty nice class), Sacred Exorcist would give you the turn attempts you want for powering Law Devotion. And in principle, you can qualify for classes like Eldritch Knight without any levels of a non-casting class at all: Dragon Slayer 1 gives you proficiency with martial weapons, and also gives spellcasting progression and a point of BAB. It doesn't have the easiest prereqs, though.

[Will_Shakespear]

Hi there,

thanks for your input so far, guys.

Here's a complete revised version. Level 13.

Race: Human
Classes: Fighter 1 / Abjurer 6 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5
HD: 1d10+1 plus 6d4+6 plus 1d8+1 plus 5d10+5
HP: 75
INI: +4
Speed: 30
AC: 10 (T 10, FF 10)
BAB / Grapple: +10 / +16
Attack: +1 Large Blessed Keen Greatsword +20 / +15 (3d6+14, 17-20, x2) or +1 Large Composite Longbow +11 / +6 (2d6+5, x3)
SA: Devoted Power Attack, Arcane Strike
Saves: FORT +10, REF +6, WILL +13
Abilities: STR 22, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 23, WIS 10, CHA 10
Skills: Concentration +17 (+21 Defensive), Knowledge (Arcana) +22, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +22, Knowledge (Local) +14, Knowledge (Nature) +22, Knowledge (Religion) +22, Knowledge (The Planes) +14, Speak Language (Common, Celestial, Draconic, Abyssal, Infernal), Spellcraft +24
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, Combat Casting, Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Cleave, Arcane Strike, Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)

Class Features: Wizard Class Variant (UA: lose Scribe Scroll and Wizard Bonus Feats, gain Fighter Bonus Feats); Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration, Swift Abjuration, Arcane Boost, Martial Arcanist; Focused Specialist (Abjurer)

Buffs: Greater Luminous Armor (Swift, Armor Bonus +13, 24 Hours), Shield (Swift, Shield Bonus +9, 24 Minutes), Magic Circle Against Evil (Swift, Deflection Bonus +2, 240 Minutes), Greater Magic Weapon (Standard, +3 Attack and Damage, 24 Hours, Rod of Extend Spell used)

Wizard Spells (CL 12, Save DC 16+Spell Level) – Prohibited Schools: Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy
Level 0 (4): All
Level 1 (5+3): *Shield, *Alarm, Mage Armor, Identify, Feather Fall
Level 2 (5+3): *Luminous Armor, *Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Mirror Image
Level 3 (4+3): *Dispel Magic, *Magic Circle Against Evil, Phantom Steed, Displacement, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon
Level 4 (3+3): *Greater Luminous Armor, *Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Polymorph, Orb of Cold
Level 5 (3+3): *Break Enchantment, Cloudkill, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Draconic Polymorph
Level 6 (2+3): *Greater Dispel Magic, Acid Fog, Analyze Dweomer, Disintegrate

Possessions: (1.750 gp left) Large Great Swordbow (Large Blessed [“Good” Weapon. Confirm Critical Threat vs. Evil 3 / Day. Swift Action. 1 Round.] Keen Greatsword +1 / Large Composite Longbow +1, STR +4), Strongarm Bracers, Belt of Giant Strength +4, Amulet of Health +2, Cloak of Resistance +3, Headband of Intellect +4, Metamagic Rod (Lesser Extend), Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic), Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic), Boccob's Blessed Book, Staff of Rejuvenation (Custom Item, Command Word, Lesser Restoration, 3/Day)

Buffed plus Draconic Polymorph used, Max Power Attack.
Hill Giant; HP 127; INI +3; Speed 40; AC 41 (T 10, F 41); BAB +10 / Grapple +21; Space 10 / Reach 10; Attack +1 Large Blessed Greatsword +17 / +12 (3d6+43, 17-20, x2); FORT +14, REF +5, WILL +13; STR 33, DEX 8, CON 21, INT 23, WIS 10, CHA 10
Plus Haste (12 rounds, 24 rounds if Extend Rod used):
Speed 70; AC 42 (T 11, FF 42); FORT +14, REF +6, WILL +13; Attack +1 Large Blessed Greatsword +18 / +18 / +13 (3d6+43, 17-20, x2)

This guy can still use Knowledge Devotion and Arcane Strike on top of that.

Cheers

Will

[Myrmex]

Is there any reason you're going abjurer?

I would go focused specialist transmuter, banning evocation, enchantment, and necromancy. Transmutation buffs are amazing, and illusions are good for getting percent miss chance.

Also, you may want to take some points out of strength and add it to dex, since getting your AC up without armor would be helpful.

However, githcraft mithril twilight fullplate with thistledown padding and a level in spellsword puts your ASF for armor at 0%. Dex bonus caps at +3, though.

As for polymorphing, if you are going to be doing a lot of it, I recommend moving more of your phsyical stats to mental stats. A good shape to be in is wartroll- they get a stun on their attacks as an Ex ability. I would downgrade str to 13 and max con, actually, seeing as how it's only 12. For being on the frontline, 12 con is quite squishy.

What level are you starting at?
Can you use ToB? A first level of crusader or Warblade, if you're not too attached to the bonus feat, might get you more than a level of fighter, in terms of maneuvers/stances. You'd have to look at it and decide for yourself, though.

If you are really going for broke, wraithstrike resolves your attacks as touch attacks for a round, while scintillating scales will turn your sizeable natural armor bonus from polymorping into a deflection bonus.

If you are going to gain levels beyond 13, I would recommend going into eldritch knight. You'll lose two caster levels, but that can be made up with practiced spell caster.

Weapon focus, specialization, and mastery aren't awesome, especially considering that you're going to be polymorphing. Multiattack and improved multiattack may be better, as they will give you basically +5 to all your wings/tails/claws as opposed to +1 to hit with a greatsword.

Since you'll be using arcane strike, getting extra natural attacks will be worth it. Those spells that grow you extra tentacles, in conjunction with multiattack, will further increase damage output. Dragons with tentacles. Ewwww.

[Hat-Trick]

Abjurer is for Abjurant Champion, which increases the Armor and Shield AC bonuses gained from abjuration spells. And I believe it's cap ability makes effective caster level equal to BAB, I may be wrong. All I have is the interweb for the class information.

[Keld Denar]

Thing is...you don't NEED to be an Abjurer to be an Abjurant Champion. Its not like Master Specialist that actually requires that you be a specialist. Its just a class that likes to combine defensive spellcasting with melee offenses. Granted, you can't be a specialist who bans Abjuration (obviously) but you don't have to be an Abjurer. You could just as easily be a Conjourer (for the yummy Abrupt Jaunt) or a Transmuter since Transmutation has ~4/5 buffs worth casting. You still value Abjurations highly, but your main focus is elsewhere.

[Hat-Trick]

I'm just saying. While I understand your approach, I also understand his. Your approach has it's merits, which probably out-weight his. But I am right on the capstone Martial Arcanist point right?

[tyckspoon]

I'm just saying. While I understand your approach, I also understand his. Your approach has it's merits, which probably out-weight his. But I am right on the capstone Martial Arcanist point right?

Yes, but the better gish builds don't need it; they'll have a native caster level meeting or bettering their BAB already. The level 5 ability is meant more for a fairly suboptimal 'gish' that functions as a martial character with minor magic instead of somebody who is actually good at both; you need a build like fighterytype 7/Wiz1/AbChamp5 to get good use from it.

[Douglas]

But I am right on the capstone Martial Arcanist point right?

Yes. Not that it actually does anything with the most recent build posted, as his BAB is actually lower than his caster level. Fortunately, that ability only applies when it would improve things.

[Keld Denar]

Its also great in Sublime Chord and Suel Arcanamach gishes, particular Suel Arcanamachs. SA is usually entered with 6 levels of full BAB classes, then you lose only 1 BAB from SA1-4, and then you continue with AC5 and Spellsword1 giving you 15/16 BAB and a CL of only 10. AC sets your CL to 15/16, which is GREAT!

[Os1ris09]

Hi there,

thanks for your input so far, guys.

Here's a complete revised version. Level 13.

Race: Human
Classes: Fighter 1 /Abjurer 6 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5
HD: 1d10+1 plus 6d4+6 plus 1d8+1 plus 5d10+5
HP: 75
INI: +4
Speed: 30
AC: 10 (T 10, FF 10)
BAB / Grapple: +10 / +16
Attack: +1 Large Blessed Keen Greatsword +20 / +15 (3d6+14, 17-20, x2) or +1 Large Composite Longbow +11 / +6 (2d6+5, x3)
SA: Devoted Power Attack, Arcane Strike
Saves: FORT +10, REF +6, WILL +13
Abilities: STR 22, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 23, WIS 10, CHA 10
Skills: Concentration +17 (+21 Defensive), Knowledge (Arcana) +22, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +22, Knowledge (Local) +14, Knowledge (Nature) +22, Knowledge (Religion) +22, Knowledge (The Planes) +14, Speak Language (Common, Celestial, Draconic, Abyssal, Infernal), Spellcraft +24
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, Combat Casting, Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Cleave, Arcane Strike, Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)

Class Features: Wizard Class Variant (UA: lose Scribe Scroll and Wizard Bonus Feats, gain Fighter Bonus Feats); Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration, Swift Abjuration, Arcane Boost, Martial Arcanist; Focused Specialist (Abjurer)

Buffs: Greater Luminous Armor (Swift, Armor Bonus +13, 24 Hours), Shield (Swift, Shield Bonus +9, 24 Minutes), Magic Circle Against Evil (Swift, Deflection Bonus +2, 240 Minutes), Greater Magic Weapon (Standard, +3 Attack and Damage, 24 Hours, Rod of Extend Spell used)

Wizard Spells (CL 12, Save DC 16+Spell Level) – Prohibited Schools: Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy
Level 0 (4): All
Level 1 (5+3): *Shield, *Alarm, Mage Armor, Identify, Feather Fall
Level 2 (5+3): *Luminous Armor, *Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Mirror Image
Level 3 (4+3): *Dispel Magic, *Magic Circle Against Evil, Phantom Steed, Displacement, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon
Level 4 (3+3): *Greater Luminous Armor, *Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Polymorph, Orb of Cold
Level 5 (3+3): *Break Enchantment, Cloudkill, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Draconic Polymorph
Level 6 (2+3): *Greater Dispel Magic, Acid Fog, Analyze Dweomer, Disintegrate

Possessions: (1.750 gp left) Large Great Swordbow (Large Blessed [“Good” Weapon. Confirm Critical Threat vs. Evil 3 / Day. Swift Action. 1 Round.] Keen Greatsword +1 / Large Composite Longbow +1, STR +4), Strongarm Bracers, Belt of Giant Strength +4, Amulet of Health +2, Cloak of Resistance +3, Headband of Intellect +4, Metamagic Rod (Lesser Extend), Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic), Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic), Boccob's Blessed Book, Staff of Rejuvenation (Custom Item, Command Word, Lesser Restoration, 3/Day)

Buffed plus Draconic Polymorph used, Max Power Attack.
Hill Giant; HP 127; INI +3; Speed 40; AC 41 (T 10, F 41); BAB +10 / Grapple +21; Space 10 / Reach 10; Attack +1 Large Blessed Greatsword +17 / +12 (3d6+43, 17-20, x2); FORT +14, REF +5, WILL +13; STR 33, DEX 8, CON 21, INT 23, WIS 10, CHA 10
Plus Haste (12 rounds, 24 rounds if Extend Rod used):
Speed 70; AC 42 (T 11, FF 42); FORT +14, REF +6, WILL +13; Attack +1 Large Blessed Greatsword +18 / +18 / +13 (3d6+43, 17-20, x2)

This guy can still use Knowledge Devotion and Arcane Strike on top of that.

Cheers

Will

Its also great in Sublime Chord and Suel Arcanamach gishes, particular Suel Arcanamachs. SA is usually entered with 6 levels of full BAB classes, then you lose only 1 BAB from SA1-4, and then you continue with AC5 and Spellsword1 giving you 15/16 BAB and a CL of only 10. AC sets your CL to 15/16, which is GREAT!

So the stuff I marked in bold, where are those things? Also can anyone recommend a Good gish but not cheese build for abjurant champion?

[Eldariel]

Well, the above minus Weapon Focus-line (he doesn't qualify for Melee Weapon Mastery/Weapon Specialization - not that he should be taking either anyways) is pretty good Abjurant Champ for a no-cheese environment. If talking about cheese, Abjurant Champ is the wrong class anyways.



Anyways, to your boldings:

Abjurer: Player's Handbook - it's a Wizard Specialization (a Wizard specializing in Abjuration)
Devoted Power Attack: Player's Handbook, Complete Champion - it's his own moniker for the combination of Law Devotion & Power Attack

Arcane Strike: Complete Warrior

Greater Luminous Armor: Book of Exalted Deeds (Sanctified spell)

[Os1ris09]

LOL sorry eldariel I meant a build for gestalt. Thank you though for helping me find those bold things though.

[Will_Shakespear]

Gah. Obviously i forgot to drop Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery since he no longer qualifies for them.
I think I'll drop the Wizard Variant from UA and take one or two Metamagic feats instead.

[Chronos]

In Gestalt, it's really really easy to make a gish. At its simplest, you could just do something like fighter 20 // wizard 20, and you'd have a perfectly functional build, with 20th level casting and 20 BAB. Anything beyond that is just gravy.

Of course, if you want to make things more complicated, there are a ton of options. Gestalt gives you a heck of a lot of flexibility and room for optimization.

[Will_Shakespear]

Gah. Obviously i forgot to drop Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery since he no longer qualifies for them.
I think I'll drop the Wizard Variant from UA and take one or two Metamagic feats instead.

[Os1ris09]

Okay so what would a good abjurant champion build LOOk like. I get there are alot of gestalt idea's but I am just looking for a build to one idea. That being said where is this Thistle down padded armor located?

In your response chronos its asks for thistledown padded mithral fullplate but I have no idea what thistle down is or where it is.

[Keld Denar]

Its in Races of the Wild. It increases your Armor Check Penalty, but decreases the Arcane Spell Failure.

[Chronos]

Okay so what would a good abjurant champion build LOOk like.

He'd be a guy in shiny armor with magic glowing around his hands and a glowing sword.

[Myrmex]

He'd be a guy in shiny armor with magic glowing around his hands and a glowing sword.

The shiny armor would be metallic or colorful, and the glowing in the blue part of the spectrum. If his armor is black and the glowing red, he's an evil abjurant champion.

[Os1ris09]

thanks guys

[Myrmex]

If I was doing a gestalt gish, assuming playing from 1 to 20, duskblade20//beguiler19/mindbender 1.

[Thurbane]

Maybe an Illumian instead of human? They have some nice racial abilities that are very handy for a Gish, including CL increases from their sigils...

[Chronos]

You can also make your save DCs depend on Str instead of Int with an illumian, which can help mitigate MAD (also, strength can be pumped much higher than int with spells and other effects).

[Will_Shakespear]

Hey guys!

I'm switching the Focused Specialist to Transmuter now.
What feats would you suggest concerning caster level? Practiced Spellcaster seems to be an option. Or the Reserve feat from CM. Suggestions?

Cheers

Will