[3.5] Wizard or Sorc for a newbie to 3.5 magic

[Thurbane]

Hey,

For my next game that I run (a few months away yet), one of the players has expressed interest in playing a spellcaster.

So far his only 3.5 experience is playing a Dwarven Fighter (his current character). His previous D&D experience is from 1E, over 20 years ago. He asked me about playing a Wizard next time (from 1st level), but I suggested he might want to try a Sorcerer for his first 3.5 caster. I thought he would have less spells to get to know, and not have to worry about managing a spellbook. This character will be pretty much core only, so other options like Warmage and Beguiler probably aren't appropriate, and others in the group should have divine casting covered.

Any opinions, or suggestions? It will be a five player party, in a horror/vs. undead type campaign. The only other definite I have got is a Fighter, and possibly a Cleric/Rogue going into Skullclan Hunter...

[Assassin89]

I think sorcerer would be a good choice, especially if he takes eschew material as a feat, as he does not have to manage as many options as a wizard. Also due to the setting of the campaign, there might be situation in which a wizard does not have time to prepare, meaning that if he wants to cast spells, a sorcerer might help with that. A wizard also has to worry about barring schools, and if there are certain spells that he wants, that might be a problem.

Otherwise let him take wizard.

[Salt_Crow]

I admit I'm rather partial to sorcerers but I think it's a good idea to go with wizard. Especially seeing he's not used to playing spellcasters. He'll get more experience that way about how magics work and the merits and disadvantages of various spells et cetara.

In my opinion it's a good way to get introduced to Vancian style magic systems :)

[Eldariel]

I definitely suggest a Wizard. He may have a bit of a trouble getting a hang of it at first (although few nudges and pokes towards the right direction should help), but Sorcerer is much more unforgiving than a Wizard - pick bad spells for a Wizard and you can change them tomorrow; pick bad spells for a Sorcerer and you're stuck with them until level-up and possibly after it too. You need a friggin' Psychic Reformation to get 'em right.

Also, if he wants to play a Wizard, that's another step to the right direction. If the game starts at a low level, all the more reason for Wizard due to Sorc's delayed spell progression. So yeah, I probably made my point, but a Wizard. If possible, suggest an Elf Generalist (only thing I suggest taking out of Core) to him so he doesn't need to figure out what to ban or anything. And point him towards e.g. d20srd so he can read up on the spells in his free time (new Wizard-players love doing that) and he can add those interesting-sounding spells the next time.

Just make sure he gets the few staples (á la Glitterdust/Web/Color Spray (or Sleep)/Black Tentacles/Fly/Greater Magic Weapon/Mirror Image - the basics) and point him away from Polymorph spells (not only are they broken, but they're also a huge bookkeeping nightmare, especially for a new player who does not know Monster Manual by heart) and he'll be good. Just the fact that he can try some spells, and just never prepare it again if he didn't like it makes Wizard win out in my eyes - he can try and decide for himself.


For spellbook, if you just print the whole Wizard-list and have him blacken out the box before the spells he has added to his spellbook (just ignore the page count - it's really an irrelevant piece of rules in the end; costs few hundred gp to get a new one), you should be good.

[Douglas]

Sorcerer is much easier to play, but requires a lot more care in selecting spells while building the character. Unless he strongly favors the wizard style of play, I'd go with Sorcerer. Just either be forgiving in allowing him to rebuild his spells known more often and more thoroughly than RAW allows or make sure he has good advice for spell selection.

[Keld Denar]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108468

This thread is also active atm, and contains a lot of relevant information inculding a pretty decent 1-20 core sorcerer spell list.

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the replies - I'll put both options on the table, and let him make his own choice. He has a good grasp of the basic of 3.5, and I'm happy to nudge him in the right direction with spell selections...

[Keld Denar]

Yea, sorcerer + good coaching is probably best for a newbie caster. Show him a bit of disable, a bit of damage, a bit of buff, and a bit of utility and then let him figure out how to best solve problems with the tools present.

[Eeezee]

Sorcerer is definitely easier, and it can be more fun as well since you can sling spells pretty much all day (and the CHA based casting means your Bluff skill should be awesome, making for good roleplaying). If you're forgiving with his spell selection (ie he makes a crap choice and wants to change, but not a regular option) then it's pretty much perfect.

The Wizard's only advantage for a new player is the ability to learn different spells each day. If you're lax with the player's spell choice, then he'll be good to go.

If he really wants to play wizard, they're really not that much harder; it's really only a little more information to deal with.

[Asgardian]

If that "pretty much core" is expanded to include PHBII... i think Duskblade would be a decent class to help him transition to spell casting without it being overwhelming

[Telonius]

I'd say sorcerer to start, and be generous with what sorts of scrolls are available for purchase.

[Tempest Fennac]

Is Elf Generalist Wizard really that good? The 1st level ability looks mediocre to me, and making a Domain Wizard would mean he wouldn't have to bar a school if barring schools would be an issue for him ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...ntDomainWizard ). Admittedly, my first ever character was an LA 0 Gnoll Cleric of Ehlonna and I didn't have any problems with making him, so I tend not to see spellcasters as hard to make.

[valadil]

I find sorcerers easier to play, but I already know all the spells. A wizard would have the advantage that spell choice isn't permanent. If your newbie decided for some odd reason to take every fire spell in the game, he'd gimp his sorcerer, but his wizard would be fixed after dropping some gold for scrolls. If this player wants to experiment with spells on his own instead of letting you help with a list, wizard may be a better choice.

[Zaq]

In a nutshell, wizard is harder to play day-to-day but harder to screw up in the long run (though specializing in evocation while banning conjuration and transmutation would be a good start towards screwing up), while sorcerer is easier to play day-to-day but easier to screw up in the long run.

Depending on the starting level of the game, how long you expect the campaign to run, and how many in-game days you expect per session, this should be the primary consideration.

Personally, I say that if you're giving him advice, point him towards the sorcerer. Resource management is way easier on a spontaneous caster than on a prepared caster, even if prepared casters are more powerful in the long run. Don't pick his entire spell list for him, but help him understand that he should have something for every save, that having too many spells of one type (such as "blast") is a bad thing, that certain spells belong in wands, and so on, and then let him free. While a top-notch wizard can destroy worlds in under 6 seconds, it's a lot easier for a novice to render themselves useless as a wizard than it is for them to do so as a sorcerer. Help him with spell selection, then let him get the feel for casting on his own.

[Eldariel]

Is Elf Generalist Wizard really that good? The 1st level ability looks mediocre to me, and making a Domain Wizard would mean he wouldn't have to bar a school if barring schools would be an issue for him ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...ntDomainWizard ). Admittedly, my first ever character was an LA 0 Gnoll Cleric of Ehlonna and I didn't have any problems with making him, so I tend not to see spellcasters as hard to make.

It's better in the sense that if you don't want to ban schools or use outright broken things (like Domain Wizard - plain better than a standard Wizard with no cave-ats or "if"s), it's the best option available, so I think it would suit a new player the best as it's open-ended and gives the player the ability to make choices and change them as he so desires without closing any doors.

[Tempest Fennac]

The Elf variant is limiting if you don't want to play an Elf. Being serious, it could be argued that not being able to pick what the Domain slot is used for would counteract not banning schools to a degree (especially since banning schools of magic which you have no intention of using isn't really paying a price for an extra spell slot anyway).

[Eldariel]

The Elf variant is limiting if you don't want to play an Elf. Being serious, it could be argued that not being able to pick what the Domain slot is used for would counteract not banning schools to a degree (especially since banning schools of magic which you have no intention of using isn't really paying a price for an extra spell slot anyway).

Not really unless you homebrew Domains and make it a point to include crap in all of them, e.g. Conjuration & Transmutation-domains both kick ass all the way (although the level 1 slots are slightly suboptimal in the early game - still usable ones though).

And then there's Storm-domain that actually gives you access to Control Winds and I suppose Storm of Vengeance. Sure, it forces you to prepare Lightning Bolt and Ice Storm (unless you want possibly Metamagicked Gust of Wind/Obscuring Mists in those slots instead), but getting Control Winds is just friggin' huge - your very own city destroyer on level 5!


Domain Wizard would be fine if you had to ban one school for it. As it stands, it's just like Boccob calling and saying: "Here, take a bunch of spell slots and don't bother calling back, I'm not going to accept payment!"

[Tempest Fennac]

Control Winds is a bit powerful if the DM decides that most buildings don't class as "Fortified" but Storm of Vengance never struck me as being that good due to how long it takes to do anything (and even then it isn't that brilliant to me).

[lsfreak]

I'd suggest wizard as well, and also second being a generalist. It is more bookkeeping, but the fact that choices aren't nearly as permanent has it going for him.

If you do point him towards sorcerer, I'd allow him to switch out spells for new ones every level rather than every other, so that he's not stuck with a poor choice based on his newbieness.

[BlueWizard]

Just don't let him get fancy with prestige classes until you think he's ready. Basic wizard and sorcerer are easy enough to figure out.

[Thurbane]

The decision for "core-only" was more for the player's benefit, as he only has access to the PHB unless he's over at my place with the books. If he really want's to take spells and feats from other sources, I wouldn't be against it.

This campaign is going to be one of our first "open" games - most of our group's other campaigns have been pretty much core-only, or core + 1 other book. With only a few DM fiats, I'm throwing this game open for the players to mix-n-match from most splatbooks (Book of Exalted Deeds, Cityscape, Complete series, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Heroes of Battle, Heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis, Magic Item Compendium, Miniatures Handbook, PHB II, Races of series, Spell Compendium, Unearthed Arcana, Weapons of Legacy and a few others)...

Since it's going to be a vs. undead/against the darkness type game, I was going to nudge the player towards the Celestial Sorcerer heritage feats if he wanted to go non-core. Naturally, the player gets the final say in what he wants to run...

[grautry]

(like Domain Wizard - plain better than a standard Wizard with no cave-ats or "if"s)

There's something other to consider though.

There are some fairly convincing arguments that Focused Specialists(Conjuration or Transmutation naturally) are basically the best, most powerful wizards around simply due to a massive upgrade in number of spells available - and in just how versatile and powerful those two schools are.

If you happen to agree with this, then a Domain Wizard is actually a downgrade in comparison(one specific spell instead of any three from a school(minus one generalist)) or about equal(if you think that the expanded spellbook is worth a school slot of every level).

One thing that's good about Domain Wizard is that if you allow for a newbie to choose it - and he takes Conjuration or Transmutation domain - then he's guaranteed to have a useful spell at every level.