Would you allow this as a DM? (Long Opening Post)

[sleepydwarf]

Hi all,

The party I currently play in is involved in realm jumping (not just between planes but from Ravenloth to Forgotten Realms etc and back again), which has made for some very interesting sessions, especially when we have to basically re-learn what our characters can and can not do after each realm jump. Imagine a cleric changing to a realm where their deity doesn’t exist at all, suddenly they have no new spells are meditating

Due to a series of deaths (followed by resurrections) or the retiring of a character to bring in a new one, the level gap between my character (lvl 11) and the others (lvls 4-6) is getting larger. I have even started trying to make it easier on the DM by taking my character off on his own rather than with the group, so that the DM can target the rest of the party with level appropriate encounters without me being able to just about wipe out the encounter solo. Although this is fun for me, it does mean that there is often times when either I am sitting around bored or the rest of the party is.

My character is planning to kill the remainder of the party very soon, yes that’s right, I am killing off the entire group (except for me and one other character that is assisting me). The reason behind it is that my character is travelling with the group purely to gain more power and knowledge to assist in tracking down his father’s murderer. Whilst the rest of the group have been helpful in this, he feels that they are now holding him back to much and that it is time to leave them. Unfortunately, he cannot leave them until the group has completed what they are in this realm for, which we should complete in the next session or two. Once this is done, then a medallion that my character is carrying around can be used to transport the group (or the survivors or just him) back to our original realm. Rather than leave them behind alive, as they may then start working on a way to get back and seek revenge on him for leaving them stuck there, he is going to kill them all.

The DM is aware that I am planning something, especially as I tried to form an alliance with the last BBEG we faced against the party, this didn’t work, although I did manage to convince the party (both in game and out of game) that I was not betraying them, but it is merely a trick to get us into the lair of the BBEG. The other party member I am teaming up with to pull this off is normally the most quiet and least likely to try anything player, so it is highly unlikely that anyone else will see it coming.
The act of killing off the other party members that are in is way is definitely inline with my characters normal behaviour and thought pattern, as is teaming up with the other character, so the DM shouldn’t have any problems with that. Our DM is semi organised but he always has loads of alternative plans in mind for just about everything we have thrown at him so far, but if not, then he has always managed to make quick adjustments to the plans e has and keep going anyway. As we have all been running 1-2 characters throughout this campaign so far, we are actually used to rolling up new characters and bringing them in, so this shouldn’t create any problems for the DM either. In fact, the only problem I can see coming is tat one of the other players may get rather upset (cant really express this strong enough on here unfortunately) and leave the group, which would actually mean that we would lose 2 players. This also may not be as bad as it sounds, as we do have another player or two that are interested in joining the group soon.

So basically:
As a DM, would you allow one of your players to kill off the entire party to suit his own warped desires, basically taking over the direction of the campaign and possibly ruining the game for one of the other players?

Definitely upset by this 1
Would absolutely love it 2
Wont really care either way 1
Doing the killing 2

Total players 6 plus the DM

Thanks for any and all constructive comments, if you would like to know some more about the party members before offering your opinion, then just ask

[Behold_the_Void]

Bottom line - if someone is going to be upset over this, it's not OK.

[Ponce]

You are level 11 and everyone is level 4-6? That by itself is pretty bad.

[Kyouhen]

I'd probably allow it. Though I would either find a way to let the guy who would be upset by it escape or would revive the character after and bring him back as a major villain (hero?) out for revenge against your player and the new party. The player in question would likely still have to make a new character, but knowing his old one will come back and at least try to get revenge might keep them from leaving the group.

[Ent]

I don't think I could ever bring myself to DM myself or my players into a corner like that; this story reminds me of STing for Vampire larps in OWbN.

Personally, I'd try to use a break like you stranding the party somewhere to fix the problem that is your character (no offense).

[sleepydwarf]

@ Behold: so basically I should stop playing my character just because one person is going to be upset? That would potentially upset me so either way, someone is going to be upset.

@ Pounce: thats the other reason why I (player) am planning on killing of everyone and leavin their bodies behind. They would all get to bring in a new character in the original realm at a higher level, either level 10 or 11 bepending on the DM

@ Kyouhen: the only problem with bringing him back as a major villian would be that he is level 4, so he would have to get some major boosting before he could challenge me. Especially as he is an unoptimised Minitor Rogue/Sorcerer attempting to be played like a front line fighter, whilst I am running a reasonably optimised Halfling Rogue/Fighter/Shadowdancer who is set up for being a killing a machine.

@ Ent: no offense taken, I know that the majority of the headaches is the fact that my original primary character as never died or been retired, thus getting a huge gap over the other characters. But our DM has stated that he doesnt want to punish me for playing my character smarter/safer than the others upto now.

[Gorbash]

@ Pounce: thats the other reason why I (player) am planning on killing of everyone and leavin their bodies behind. They would all get to bring in a new character in the original realm at a higher level, either level 10 or 11 bepending on the DM

How altruistic of you.

If I was DMing that campaign, I'd probably insert a deus-ex machina to save the party and kill you. That way you could make a new character who is lvl 4-6. If the rest of the party doesn't kick you off the campaign for being a douche.

[742]

the level gap seems a big DM mistake, he/she/it/they knows that as DM you can just say "oh, by the way, your level 11 now, make a note of that." and PC murdering, wow, that sounds like something i would do! corny cliche bad explaination for it, but sounds fun.

[Lycan 01]

I would let you do it...

You've put a lot of thought into it, it makes a lot of sense, and as you've said the other players are used to making new characters.

The only issue I can see is if one of the other players actually gets upset to the point of insulting you or even getting physical. I've had this happen before when I purposefully TPKed my entire Call of Cthulhu party - it was all just a dream, though. But they didn't let me explain that... Once Nyarlathotep, messenger of the Outer Gods and lover of madness, backhanded one of the player's faces off, everybody turned on me fast. One guy basically "Blue Screen of Death"ed on us, while another actually cussed me out and got up to leave.

As it turned out, the guy who's face got backhanded off was in on it (I made a copy of his character sheet - and tore up the copy during the game after he "died" in order to prove I was "serious" about what was happening), and all was forgiven once I explained everything. In fact, the guy that cussed me out gave me a hug and said I was the best Keeper ever... The BSOD guy said it was the most epic session ever.

So yeah, TPKs can be fun. But like I said, be careful that the players don't take it too seriously. Its all in good fun, after all...

Plus, if what you said is true, they get to buff up to level 10 or 11! Whats wrong with that? XD

Maybe you can strike a deal with the DM afterwards that they can somehow get revived or something if they really get that bent out of shape about it...

[Kris Strife]

Ask the DM for a boss battle where the villan attempts to escape through a portal and you're the only one who can get to it in time. Have the other characters be raised to level 10 or 11 and say that it took you and the BBEG a few months/years of real time to exit the portal and they scryed where you'd come out.

[Juggernaut1981]

As a DM, I would honestly be looking at the three BAD magic letters of RPGs...

T.P.K.

I'd bump all of you off, wipe the slate clean and let your nicely bleached bones be found by the next party. Do it in a way that NONE of you were probably seeing it coming... (for instance since this party seems to happily include Evil PCs, I'd probably have one of them sell their soul to a Devil and when you cut short that Devil's Investment Plan(tm)... have you targeted by all of what is mean and nasty... and give the devil's to other players to play...)

[Berserk Monk]

Sacrifice the fun of 4 players for two? Yeah, if he tries anything, this is when the 30 paladins randomly appear and bring about justice.

[Narmoth]

I think something is very wrong with the campaign if you haven't agreed beforehand on playing an evil campaign. In the last instance, I'd allow it.

TPK would simply not be fun for the 4 lvl 6 players who can't do anything but get killed by a character that is for some, most likely very unfair, reason much more powerful than them.

[Townopolis]

I'd try and find a way that makes everyone happy. The aforementioned portal idea is one that I like. You follow a BBEG through a portal, it leads to a plane where the timeflow differs in such a way that, when you are reunited with the rest of the party, they've all caught up to you (maybe a little lower, 10 to your 11).

You could also come across some source of "Training from Hell" wherein everyone else takes the opportunity because they seriously need it, but your character is more focused on his mission, so he doesn't The training works, and the rest of the party catches up with you having reached level 10.

Just some way for your character to leave the party on good terms so you don't have to PK people who aren't going to be OK with it.

[Tempest Fennac]

I wouldn't allow it either (I don't like inter-party conflict anyway, but your plan sounds a bit excessive). Would having a subquest for a powerful Outsider to recover the lost levels work in place of you killing everyone?

[Satyr]

There is one completely workable solution for this: sleepydwarf's character abandons the group, and leaves it in the other realm for supposedly good. The character becomes a NPC then. Sleepydwarf creates a new character with an appropriate level equal to the rest of the group, the former PC becomes the big bad of the next act of the campaign and is eventually slain by the group. An enemy like this will create a rather strong emotional response in the players, because of the treason, which is a good base for a suspenseful game; and if you cooperate well with your Gamemaster, the rest of the players will probably be surprised and get an interesting new plot arc, which is in probably every single regard than the originally intended scenario while it probably stays true to the characters' motivations and M.O.

[Yuki Akuma]

I would never allow it.

Instead, I'd tear up your character sheet and tell you to make a level 3 character. Yes, level 3.

[lord_khaine]

to start with i would say that the dm must carry some of the responsibility, for letting the level difference in the party go so far, my personal experience says that anything over 2 levels in difference is a bad idea.

As a DM, would you allow one of your players to kill off the entire party to suit his own warped desires, basically taking over the direction of the campaign and possibly ruining the game for one of the other players?

still, if any of my players came up with an idea like that, then i would stone him with my dice.

[OneFamiliarFace]

Personally, I wouldn't allow it. I admit that I do play with a friendlier GM style than many. But TPKs and PvP are generally strongly discouraged in my campaigns, as I feel that their presence develops a strong reluctance to become involved in the GM's story or a character's personal history and motivation.

I guess, first, the level gap wouldn't have occurred in my games, as I don't require a level loss for dying. Rather, resurrection is more expensive.

Second, and more importantly, I would not Deus Ex Machina the situation. I would simply work with the player to find alternate solutions. It probably helps with this that my only requirement for characters is usually some basic form of party cohesion. This may sound like railroading, but DMing is a LOT OF WORK, and party infighting draws games to a screeching halt (not to mention the fact that is is rarely, if ever, appreciated by all party members involved).

I think a good thing to read on this subject is the Giant's own write-up of character motivations and what-not. Essentially, you are in charge of your own character, and you can set it up to where Killing the Party is never a necessary option for your character.

Of course, I have no idea how the group normally flows and deals with situations like this. Still, I would agree with others that the fact that it would cause a player to leave the game makes it Automatically Off-limits. Breaking up the party is one thing. Breaking up the game is another thing entirely.

[Killer Angel]

So basically:
As a DM, would you allow one of your players to kill off the entire party to suit his own warped desires, basically taking over the direction of the campaign and possibly ruining the game for one of the other players?

This is the key.
Even you admit that this is going to ruin the game for the other players, and the risk is to have some guy leaving the table.
NO GOOD.
I can understand that you now have no fun, but... TPK (or single character killing) by another character, can be done with minimal consequences only within a group of seasoned gamers and friends, and only if they all know and agree to such a kind of game (I DM once such a campaign, and we have fun, but it was a once-in-a-life).
First af all, your DM has a lot of fault for letting rise this situation, so you should pass the burden on him.
Tell him what you want to do, WHI you want to do it, and ask him for some ideas to resolve the mess without TPK and with satisfaction for all the players.

[tomaO2]

I don't understand how players can betray each other like this... You are a TEAM, you are suppost to work together. I haven't played very much but I did get attacked by a fellow player once. He tried to kill me and chopped off my hand before I killed his character. I then died in a session that I wasn't able to join. Though in fairness, probably would have died anyway. The whole thing left a very bad taste in my mouth but all the players seemed too not like how I played. It was my second character ever for D&D, give me a break.

Everyone thought it was good I died though cause I wasn't fighting upfront like a fighter type character should do. I don't know what the problem was. It's the GM's own fault. Every time he attacked we got lots of notice and it was a desert so we could plainly see them coming. I saw no reason to run out to close range when I could lob off a few arrows and wait for them to come to me and THEN go melee.

They insisted I not pick a melee character after mine died. I got my original character as the replacement though so that was good. Especially since it was a regular D&D mage, transported into Dark Sun. Naturally, my guy would know nothing about how to draw magic the proper way so he was going evil and WOW the level progression on evil mages is great in that setting. I was going to quickly build up a few levels, have some sort of alignment crisis, learn the proper way, take a one level hit and still be way ahead of the game.

Unfortunately, the DM decided to get rid of him arbitrarilly. *sighs* In rerospect, I think that was meant as a peacemaker to take the sting out of the loss with no real intention of having me keep it.

Anyway, killing your party members is not cool in my book. Regardless of the reason. Unless you have very antagonistic IC relationship with another party member, like Paladin vs thief.

[RebelRogue]

I'm saddened by the killing of fellow PCs appearantly being seen as a fair and common way to solve problems!

[Kurald Galain]

While there's nothing wrong with killing other player characters as long as it won't break their enjoyment of the game, the fact that you have to ask indicates that it likely will stop their fun. And that makes it not OK.

[arguskos]

I'd allow it, yes. I'd also be ****ING PISSED YOU DIDN'T WORK ME, AS YOUR DM, IN!!!!

Look, PvP CAN work out in D&D, as long as the DM is in on it! If you go to your DM and say, "Hey, I want to kill the party to solve this horrendous level disparity, what do you think" you and he can then work out a solution that doesn't drive the other players insane, and actually gets everything fixed.

Now, if you pull something like that w/o telling me, I'll let it happen... and then ask you and anyone who helped you to leave, on grounds of being bastards who are more interested in ruining friendships with juvenile behavior than solving a mutual issue with the guy running everything.

[RebelRogue]

I'd allow it, yes. I'd also be ****ING PISSED YOU DIDN'T WORK ME, AS YOUR DM, IN!!!!

Look, PvP CAN work out in D&D, as long as the DM is in on it! If you go to your DM and say, "Hey, I want to kill the party to solve this horrendous level disparity, what do you think" you and he can then work out a solution that doesn't drive the other players insane, and actually gets everything fixed.

So it's ok to screw up things for 4-5 persons (the players) but not for one (the DM). That doesn't sound right to me!

[sleepydwarf]

This is the key.
Even you admit that this is going to ruin the game for the other players, and the risk is to have some guy leaving the table.
NO GOOD.
I can understand that you now have no fun, but... TPK (or single character killing) by another character, can be done with minimal consequences only within a group of seasoned gamers and friends, and only if they all know and agree to such a kind of game (I DM once such a campaign, and we have fun, but it was a once-in-a-life).
First af all, your DM has a lot of fault for letting rise this situation, so you should pass the burden on him.
Tell him what you want to do, WHI you want to do it, and ask him for some ideas to resolve the mess without TPK and with satisfaction for all the players.

I never said that it would ruin it for the other players, although yes there is a risk of one player leaving. Also, I never said it was no fun for me now, i am still having fun and I have pulled my main character back as much as possible to ensure that the others have fun also. In fact, the only one it would ruin te game for is the guy that may leave over it. Even then, the idea that he would hate it and leave is only my thoughts.

As for the rest of the party knowing or agreeing in advance with regards to PvP, lets looks at the party history abit:
First death was player 4 at the hands of player 3
Second death: Player 3 at hands of player 5 (me)
Third death: Player 2 at hands of player 1
Forth Death: Player 3 at hands of NPC Bad Guy
Fifth Death: Player 3 at hands of player 4 (its called revenge people )
Sixth Death: Player 3 at hands of player 4 (accidental)
Seventh Death: Player 1 (accidental by combination of players 2, 4 & 5)

And it just goes on from there. The majority of deaths in our party is from party conflict. As for the idea "Your a team, you should all be happily working together" well no we are not a team, we got drafting at sword point into an army setup, got forced through the rifts to start jumping between realms, at all times we have kept trying to advance out own motives etc based on our individual backstory.

@ Arguskos: Naturally the DM has final say in matter, I have already discussed the betrayal of the group with him (as in me joining forces with the previous and the next BBEG). He actually loved the idea, when the rest of the party found out (although convinced otherwise, unless they are reading this now), not one of them complained or thought it was a bad thing. Oh, and I did mention in passing to him that I was considering the idea of killing the rest of the party off and gave a basic in game reason behind it to him. He didnt seem to mind it at all, although I know he would want more information about the motives etc behind it

[arguskos]

So it's ok to screw up things for 4-5 persons (the players) but not for one (the DM). That doesn't sound right to me!

*sigh* Look, if you read my post, you'd have gotten my point.

The point was that IF he decided to go ahead and do this w/o considering the consequences, then yes, I'll permit it and then tell him to leave and never return to my gaming group for his lack of consideration. I would then proceed to apologize profusely to the other players, who are completely innocent of wrongdoing. We would go on and play something where people actually respected their friends.

Of course, if the player came to me and said, "hey, want to try X, wanna help me make something happen?" I'd respond, "Yeah, but maybe let's try Y instead, it won't piss off everyone else, ok?" And things would be good.

See? Ideally, everyone wins.

Oh, and to OP: sorry if my tone was/is a touch harsh, but this sort of behavior really gets under my skin. My advice: TALK TO YOUR DM!!!!!! Work out something that solves the issue w/o pissing off everyone else.

EDIT: I see you have. However, have you considered that you can solve the issue in an in-character fashion that doesn't involve PvP? It's just a thought. Find a way to retire your guy and rejoin at their level. It really is best to avoid the possibility off angering players/DM (as a DM who had a player do this, and it ended poorly, even WITH my attempts to dam the floodgates of anger, it's best to just not start down this path).

[Narmoth]

Why do you even need other monsters?
This really sets our new dms first effort on running a long campaign in a different light. I think I'll go and give him a big hug.

Okay, I won't. But I'm certainly thank him. Maybe help him a bit more with making his larp equipment.

[bosssmiley]

My character is planning to kill the remainder of the party very soon, yes that’s right, I am killing off the entire group (except for me and one other character that is assisting me).

What makes you think that your enjoyment can be had at the cost of four other peoples' enjoyment? This situation could be used as a case study for noisms' first rule test.

Oh, and as for screwing things up for the DM: he should expect it; it's what players do.

[sleepydwarf]

No worries Arguskos

I want honest emotional responses to the question, especially as I only have 2 weeks left in which to work out exactly what my character is going to do. I also have to sit down with the DM before then and let him know.

He has floated te idea of my character joining the BBEG as a senior henchman and being retired away form the group that way (until it is time to face him again). So I have also been making up my new character at level 4 (the same level as the lowest member of the remainder of the party) so that no matter wat is decided, we are able to continue the gaming without major interuptions.