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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Racial HD + players a Question

    First sorry if this is a double post.

    SO my question is why is that 1 HD creatures get to trade there 1 HD for class levels yet a creature with 2 or more HD can subtract 1 racial hd and gain class levels? Is it really that unbalanced. Or is this just WOTC's over sight?
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    oxybe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    the 1 HD (for example, like the standard goblin or orc) is a class level. 2 HD monsters have two racial hit die, to which class HD are added after. this is intentional.

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    Zincorium's Avatar

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    In clarification-

    If a race would only have one racial hit die, and is intelligent, it will swap out that die for a class level.

    Anything with two or more cannot.

    Spelled out, with no wiggle room for interpretation.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    I think he's wondering why a one HD monster trades that one HD in, but a 2 or higher HD monster can't trade in one of their HD for a class level, not if they do.

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    monty's Avatar

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Probably the same reason why a commoner with a pick is technically unable to actually mine anything. Some things in this game just don't make sense.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Because the "one hit die" those monsters have isn't a racial HD, it's a class HD (that class usually being the NPC warrior class found in the DMG.) Monsters with 2+HD don't have any class levels as written- the HD theyhave are racial, not class HD.

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    Xuincherguixe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    It is generally accepted that racial hit dice, and level adjustment tend to result in PCs that aren't very good. While there are some monsters, and templates that are good, most are not.

    ... Oh, huh. Rereading the OP I see that this is something of an oversight.


    No, it's not really an oversight. Some monsters it's not really unreasonable to have class levels. Orcs and Goblins for instance. They're close enough to PCs that they can be theoretically be treated as such.
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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Yes, it's intentional, but it still doesn't really make sense. I can make a character that has 5 racial hit dice and two levels of fighter. I can make a character with 4 RHD and two levels, or one with 3 or 2 RHD and two levels. And I can make a character with 0 RHD and 2 levels. But I simply cannot, for some reason, make a character with 1 racial hit die and two levels of fighter. Why should that be the case?
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    But I simply cannot, for some reason, make a character with 1 racial hit die and two levels of fighter.
    You can if that character is not a Humanoid, as single HD humanoids are the ONLY creatures who exchange their RHD for their first class level.
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    Imp

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuincherguixe View Post
    It is generally accepted that racial hit dice, and level adjustment tend to result in PCs that aren't very good. While there are some monsters, and templates that are good, most are not.

    ... Oh, huh. Rereading the OP I see that this is something of an oversight.


    No, it's not really an oversight. Some monsters it's not really unreasonable to have class levels. Orcs and Goblins for instance. They're close enough to PCs that they can be theoretically be treated as such.
    So what about bugbears? They to me don't seem unreasonable to have class levels. Bugbears where actualy the reason this came up with me and a friend with both don't agree the 3 RH are nessasery I saw 1 is good. he says 2... but it led us to the question i asked above.

    What about trogs and Lizard folk also seem pritty non- monsterious to me.
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    I sorry i fail Englimish...(appologise for Spelling/Grammer Errors) Please don't correct my spelling or grammer eaither.

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    So what about bugbears? They to me don't seem unreasonable to have class levels. Bugbears where actualy the reason this came up with me and a friend with both don't agree the 3 RH are nessasery I saw 1 is good. he says 2... but it led us to the question i asked above.

    What about trogs and Lizard folk also seem pritty non- monsterious to me.
    You know you could just get the Racial HD level drained to 1...then you can exchange the 1 to a Class level.

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    I'd suggest taking a look at Savage Species - it's 3e, rather than 3.5, but it has these neat things called 'racial classes'.

    Basically, you could be a "level 1 bugbear" - which would be a teenaged bugbear rather than an adult - and then multiclass into another class without taking any more levels in bugbear.

    Don't make the mistake of just reducing the bugbear's RHD to 1 and call it good, though. A level 1 bugbear has lower ability score adjustments.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2009-04-18 at 10:21 AM.
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Basically, you could be a "level 1 bugbear" - which would be a teenaged bugbear rather than an adult - and then multiclass into another class without taking any more levels in bugbear.
    I've seen a lot of folks suggesting this, but it's not allowed. Page 27 of Savage Species, under "Monster classes and multiclassing":
    A monster character using these rules may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switching to a standard class
    The only benefit of using a monster class rather than just using the rules in the DMG and Monster Manual is that you can start play before the monster's standard starting level.
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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    I've seen a lot of folks suggesting this, but it's not allowed. Page 27 of Savage Species, under "Monster classes and multiclassing":The only benefit of using a monster class rather than just using the rules in the DMG and Monster Manual is that you can start play before the monster's standard starting level.
    Yep, the only decent method of playing a lower ECL is make a Bugbear with a backstory of being level drained by a Vampire or Wight: as long as you survive and have 1 HD left: you can switch it for a class level.

    Since may or may not backstory's be allowed by DM though: it isn't reliable.

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    You can if that character is not a Humanoid, as single HD humanoids are the ONLY creatures who exchange their RHD for their first class level.
    Not true. From the SRD:
    Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels.
    Emphasis mine. On an unrelated note, I'm not an English major, but shouldn't that be "fewer," not "less"?
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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Yep, the only decent method of playing a lower ECL is make a Bugbear with a backstory of being level drained by a Vampire or Wight: as long as you survive and have 1 HD left: you can switch it for a class level.

    Since may or may not backstory's be allowed by DM though: it isn't reliable.
    That's interesting i never thought of that.
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Hmm....

    Well, I don't know where that info about "Monsters as Races" came from, but originally the ability to trade your single HD for a class level was (and still is) a feature of the Humanoid creature type.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD - Humanoid Type
    Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

    Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.
    No other creature type says anything to that effect.
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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    No other creature type says anything to that effect.
    But they also don't say that you don't. And since the monster section says that everything does, with no exceptions listed, it seems clear enough to me.
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by monty View Post
    But they also don't say that you don't. And since the monster section says that everything does, with no exceptions listed, it seems clear enough to me.
    *shrug*

    It's not my fault if the two pieces of information contradict each other. I'm just trying to help.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    "What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    *shrug*

    It's not my fault if the two pieces of information contradict each other. I'm just trying to help.
    But...they don't contradict each other...
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    It's implied. Having the rule about replacing single HD for class levels be a trait of Humanoid creatures implies that it's NOT a trait of any other creature type. Whereas the part monty quoted (from the DMG) gives that ability to all 1 HD creatures. Hence the contradiction.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    It's implied. Having the rule about replacing single HD for class levels be a trait of Humanoid creatures implies that it's NOT a trait of any other creature type. Whereas the part monty quoted (from the DMG) gives that ability to all 1 HD creatures. Hence the contradiction.
    So one sort of implies, and the other explicitly states. I don't see that as much of a contradiction.
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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Everybody gets it.

    Humanoids just specifically get it so nobody forgets to give it to them.
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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Racial HD + players a Question

    Yeah, it's not Humanoids only - look at the section for Pixies, everyone's favorite Warlocks/Rogues:

    Quote Originally Posted by The SRD
    Pixies As Characters

    A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2009-04-19 at 12:16 AM.

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