Racial HD + players a Question

[RagnaroksChosen]

First sorry if this is a double post.

SO my question is why is that 1 HD creatures get to trade there 1 HD for class levels yet a creature with 2 or more HD can subtract 1 racial hd and gain class levels? Is it really that unbalanced. Or is this just WOTC's over sight?

[oxybe]

the 1 HD (for example, like the standard goblin or orc) is a class level. 2 HD monsters have two racial hit die, to which class HD are added after. this is intentional.

[Zincorium]

In clarification-

If a race would only have one racial hit die, and is intelligent, it will swap out that die for a class level.

Anything with two or more cannot.

Spelled out, with no wiggle room for interpretation.

[Hat-Trick]

I think he's wondering why a one HD monster trades that one HD in, but a 2 or higher HD monster can't trade in one of their HD for a class level, not if they do.

[monty]

Probably the same reason why a commoner with a pick is technically unable to actually mine anything. Some things in this game just don't make sense.

[Shpadoinkle]

Because the "one hit die" those monsters have isn't a racial HD, it's a class HD (that class usually being the NPC warrior class found in the DMG.) Monsters with 2+HD don't have any class levels as written- the HD theyhave are racial, not class HD.

[Xuincherguixe]

It is generally accepted that racial hit dice, and level adjustment tend to result in PCs that aren't very good. While there are some monsters, and templates that are good, most are not.

... Oh, huh. Rereading the OP I see that this is something of an oversight.


No, it's not really an oversight. Some monsters it's not really unreasonable to have class levels. Orcs and Goblins for instance. They're close enough to PCs that they can be theoretically be treated as such.

[Chronos]

Yes, it's intentional, but it still doesn't really make sense. I can make a character that has 5 racial hit dice and two levels of fighter. I can make a character with 4 RHD and two levels, or one with 3 or 2 RHD and two levels. And I can make a character with 0 RHD and 2 levels. But I simply cannot, for some reason, make a character with 1 racial hit die and two levels of fighter. Why should that be the case?

[KillianHawkeye]

But I simply cannot, for some reason, make a character with 1 racial hit die and two levels of fighter.

You can if that character is not a Humanoid, as single HD humanoids are the ONLY creatures who exchange their RHD for their first class level.

[RagnaroksChosen]

It is generally accepted that racial hit dice, and level adjustment tend to result in PCs that aren't very good. While there are some monsters, and templates that are good, most are not.

... Oh, huh. Rereading the OP I see that this is something of an oversight.


No, it's not really an oversight. Some monsters it's not really unreasonable to have class levels. Orcs and Goblins for instance. They're close enough to PCs that they can be theoretically be treated as such.

So what about bugbears? They to me don't seem unreasonable to have class levels. Bugbears where actualy the reason this came up with me and a friend with both don't agree the 3 RH are nessasery I saw 1 is good. he says 2... but it led us to the question i asked above.

What about trogs and Lizard folk also seem pritty non- monsterious to me.

[Starbuck_II]

So what about bugbears? They to me don't seem unreasonable to have class levels. Bugbears where actualy the reason this came up with me and a friend with both don't agree the 3 RH are nessasery I saw 1 is good. he says 2... but it led us to the question i asked above.

What about trogs and Lizard folk also seem pritty non- monsterious to me.

You know you could just get the Racial HD level drained to 1...then you can exchange the 1 to a Class level.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'd suggest taking a look at Savage Species - it's 3e, rather than 3.5, but it has these neat things called 'racial classes'.

Basically, you could be a "level 1 bugbear" - which would be a teenaged bugbear rather than an adult - and then multiclass into another class without taking any more levels in bugbear.

Don't make the mistake of just reducing the bugbear's RHD to 1 and call it good, though. A level 1 bugbear has lower ability score adjustments.

[Chronos]

Basically, you could be a "level 1 bugbear" - which would be a teenaged bugbear rather than an adult - and then multiclass into another class without taking any more levels in bugbear.

I've seen a lot of folks suggesting this, but it's not allowed. Page 27 of Savage Species, under "Monster classes and multiclassing":

A monster character using these rules may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switching to a standard class

The only benefit of using a monster class rather than just using the rules in the DMG and Monster Manual is that you can start play before the monster's standard starting level.

[Starbuck_II]

I've seen a lot of folks suggesting this, but it's not allowed. Page 27 of Savage Species, under "Monster classes and multiclassing":The only benefit of using a monster class rather than just using the rules in the DMG and Monster Manual is that you can start play before the monster's standard starting level.

Yep, the only decent method of playing a lower ECL is make a Bugbear with a backstory of being level drained by a Vampire or Wight: as long as you survive and have 1 HD left: you can switch it for a class level.

Since may or may not backstory's be allowed by DM though: it isn't reliable.

[monty]

You can if that character is not a Humanoid, as single HD humanoids are the ONLY creatures who exchange their RHD for their first class level.

Not true. From the SRD:

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels.

Emphasis mine. On an unrelated note, I'm not an English major, but shouldn't that be "fewer," not "less"?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Yep, the only decent method of playing a lower ECL is make a Bugbear with a backstory of being level drained by a Vampire or Wight: as long as you survive and have 1 HD left: you can switch it for a class level.

Since may or may not backstory's be allowed by DM though: it isn't reliable.

That's interesting i never thought of that.

[KillianHawkeye]

Hmm....

Well, I don't know where that info about "Monsters as Races" came from, but originally the ability to trade your single HD for a class level was (and still is) a feature of the Humanoid creature type.

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.

No other creature type says anything to that effect.

[monty]

No other creature type says anything to that effect.

But they also don't say that you don't. And since the monster section says that everything does, with no exceptions listed, it seems clear enough to me.

[KillianHawkeye]

But they also don't say that you don't. And since the monster section says that everything does, with no exceptions listed, it seems clear enough to me.

*shrug*

It's not my fault if the two pieces of information contradict each other. I'm just trying to help.

[streakster]

*shrug*

It's not my fault if the two pieces of information contradict each other. I'm just trying to help.

But...they don't contradict each other...

[KillianHawkeye]

It's implied. Having the rule about replacing single HD for class levels be a trait of Humanoid creatures implies that it's NOT a trait of any other creature type. Whereas the part monty quoted (from the DMG) gives that ability to all 1 HD creatures. Hence the contradiction.

[monty]

It's implied. Having the rule about replacing single HD for class levels be a trait of Humanoid creatures implies that it's NOT a trait of any other creature type. Whereas the part monty quoted (from the DMG) gives that ability to all 1 HD creatures. Hence the contradiction.

So one sort of implies, and the other explicitly states. I don't see that as much of a contradiction.

[Zincorium]

Everybody gets it.

Humanoids just specifically get it so nobody forgets to give it to them.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, it's not Humanoids only - look at the section for Pixies, everyone's favorite Warlocks/Rogues:

Pixies As Characters

A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie