Create Food Trap?

[Zergrusheddie]

I just read about a Create Food/Water Trap and even frantically searching using the Mighty Google has failed me. I have never heard of anything this silly in a while; how does it work?

[arguskos]

Use the trap creation rules to make an automatic reset, pressure trigger trap of Create Food and Water.

It's... really simple, actually. The main idea is that you have people walk over it, triggering it, to get food. It then automatically resets, letting someone else do the same thing. It's a silly thing, but it's the first brick in the road to the Tippyverse.

[Riffington]

Not to be confused with the "barbecue sauce" trap, which sprays PCs with a tasty and tangy sauce before they enter the red dragon's lair...

[Tempest Fennac]

I never got how these traps never became standard issue in D&D worlds considering how many people it would free up for other things due to the lack of need for farming. Incidentally, would a level 5 Cleric be able to make traps which did this? (I know that's when they can first cast Create Food and Water).

[Jack_Simth]

I just read about a Create Food/Water Trap and even frantically searching using the Mighty Google has failed me. I have never heard of anything this silly in a while; how does it work?

As arguskos hinted at, the intent of the trap isn't to hurt anyone - it's to feed a nation.

See, the rules (such as they are) for traps don't care what spell you use in a magic trap, they don't have per-day limits, any spell you put in there technically takes effect instantly on triggering the trap, and there's no required delay for an automatic reset trap - which means that if you put a beneficial spell into one (Create Food and Water, Endure Elements, Cure X Wounds, Fabricate, Heal, True Resurrection, whatever) and put it in a publicly accessible space, you can significantly improve society by freeing up the labor currently used to support the population to do other tasks. For instance, if nobody needs to farm, you can have everyone trained in a Craft, and thus everyone has more and better goods (as they don't have to spend either time or money on little things like food and disease control, they get to spend their time and money on getting nice things, instead). Down side: It tends towards monopolistic tendancies in whoever's running things. With Emperor Tippy, it was a fairly extreme case (I debated him once - his idea of dealing with a government that wanted to tax his business was to mind-control the leaders).

I never got how these traps never became standard issue in D&D worlds considering how many people it would free up for other things due to the lack of need for farming. Incidentally, would a level 5 Cleric be able to make traps which did this? (I know that's when they can first cast Create Food and Water).

The only requirements are: you be able to cast the spell; you have the cash, time, and XP for crafting; and you've got Craft Wondrous Item. So yes, if the Cleric takes the feat at 3rd level, no problem.

What stops it? Well... put it this way: What will it cost the Cleric to create it, and assuming peasantry that's currently running around earning 1 sp/day for untrained labor, how long will it take the cleric to break even selling tasteless food?

[Fizban]

Only if he had another character at a really high level to help, because you can't spend enough xp voluntarily to decrease a level, at least from casting and crafting.

Edit: Ninja'd, but not on the same question.

Double Edit: Nothing to see here, carry on.

[Jack_Simth]

Only if he had another character at a really high level to help, because you can't spend enough xp voluntarily to decrease a level, at least from casting and crafting.

Umm... for a trap with no expensive components (such as Create Food and Water, under question), the cost is +500 gp × caster level × spell level, +40 XP × caster level × spell level; in the case of Create Food and Water (spell level 3, caster level 5), that's 7,500 gp and 600 xp - within normal range for a 5th level character (although it does eat up a lot of wealth by level at that point).

[hewhosaysfish]

The "rules" for creating a trap" allow you to create a trap which which casts a given spell every time someone walks over it.
If you make a trap with create food and water as the triggered spell then you get a thing which can create food (and water) out of thin air every 6 seconds as someone sets it off. It's stationary (because it's a trap) but it cost significantly less than a use-activated Wondrous Item of the same spell. (half, in fact: 7,500 gp and 600xp vs. 15,000 gp and 1,200 xp).

Basically: using magic to solve the worlds problems (which is a fair enough idea) and abusing the differences between the magic item creation rules and the trap creation rules (and a lax definition of "trap") to do it on the cheap.

[Zergrusheddie]

Tippyverse is another term I've read thrown around these forums. I know it refers to Emperor Tippy, but does anyone have the original link?

[Fizban]

Umm... for a trap with no expensive components (such as Create Food and Water, under question), the cost is +500 gp × caster level × spell level, +40 XP × caster level × spell level; in the case of Create Food and Water (spell level 3, caster level 5), that's 7,500 gp and 600 xp - within normal range for a 5th level character (although it does eat up a lot of wealth by level at that point).

My bad, as they say. I forgot just how much cheaper traps are, and didn't do the math.

[Tempest Fennac]

I was thinking more about the idea of a Cleric making the trap to help people, or the idea of an evil aristocrat commisioning it so that people have more time to train so he could take over the world. Also, a Prestigitation Trap could take care of the lack of flavour, while cleaning people who used it. Endure Elements and Remove X condition would make clothing and doctors obsolete as well, but I'm guiessing Clerics couldn't die out due to how the traps would need maintaining (assuming you ignore RAW, which says they don't need maintaining for some reason).

[Cheesegear]

Tippyverse is another term I've read thrown around these forums. I know it refers to Emperor Tippy, but does anyone have the original link?

There is no such 'place' as the Tippyverse. The 'Tippyverse' is a place where Players can actually do whatever they like and 'RAW is Law' and GMs apparently don't exist. Magic seems to work a different way when Tippy describes it.

His idea of dealing with a government that wanted to tax his business was to mind-control the leaders.

It's almost like you expected something other than that?

[Mewtarthio]

There is no such 'place' as the Tippyverse. The 'Tippyverse' is a place where Players can actually do whatever they like and 'RAW is Law' and GMs apparently don't exist. Magic seems to work a different way when Tippy describes it.

More specifically: There is not, as far as I know, an "official" Tippyverse, like there is an official Logic Ninja wizard. The term "Tippyverse" refers to a world ruled by wizards, akin to what is described in nearly all of Tippy's posts.

[Another_Poet]

Okay, I see where you guys are going - a rules exploit for unlimited food.

But it gives me an idea for a very evil trap.

1. Take a small dried apricot or date and turn it into a trap of Create Food & Water. Pressure-trigger, onset delay 5 rds, auto reset.

2. Bake it inside a small fruit-bread.

3. Give it to the person you hate.

4. Put on your rain coat and stand back. Might want to wear goggles too.

mwahahahahaha....

[lilhowie624]

LOL i love it

gonna have to try it in my next campaign

[Kris Strife]

Not to be confused with the "barbecue sauce" trap, which sprays PCs with a tasty and tangy sauce before they enter the red dragon's lair...

I am not allowed to baste the elf before fighting the dragon.

[kjones]

Dungeonscape recognizes this silliness for what it is, and contains actual rules for crafting traps with beneficial effects (in the context of having monsters use them to their advantage during encounters, with the recognition that PCs might try to use them to their own advantage during or after the encounter). For example, consider a battle with some monsters with a trap that casts haste on them.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Dungeonscape recognizes this silliness for what it is, and contains actual rules for crafting traps with beneficial effects (in the context of having monsters use them to their advantage during encounters, with the recognition that PCs might try to use them to their own advantage during or after the encounter). For example, consider a battle with some monsters with a trap that casts haste on them.

I think those rules were intended for things like Undead with an Uttercold Cone of Cold trap, not primarily buff spells, though they're probably better for buffs than the core rules.

[Darth Stabber]

Had a group of Psions, Wizards, and Clerics of Baccob create a Plane once (for a game that I was GMing) that was based on Tippy's postings. Only instead of create food traps it was a sustenance trap, but it was the same net effect, Oh and there were construction golems, table traps that cast heroes feast in the main Banquet hall (for special occasions), prestidigitation traps for cleaning up, summon monster traps for training the young up and comers in arenas (cheap source of XP, also various craftsmen got some xp their before building stuff), Healing Traps, Resurrection traps, Planeshift/Teleport Traps, and the big one, the Wish trap in the meeting chamber. The players had a base of operations, and could go about their business, and there was the added benefit, that if I wanted them to be a higher level before an adventure, they had a convenient place to grind.

[chiasaur11]

Okay, I see where you guys are going - a rules exploit for unlimited food.

But it gives me an idea for a very evil trap.

1. Take a small dried apricot or date and turn it into a trap of Create Food & Water. Pressure-trigger, onset delay 5 rds, auto reset.

2. Bake it inside a small fruit-bread.

3. Give it to the person you hate.

4. Put on your rain coat and stand back. Might want to wear goggles too.

mwahahahahaha....

Aren't traps immobile?

I'd always assumed there were rules about that.

[kopout]

Had a group of Psions, Wizards, and Clerics of Baccob create a Plane once (for a game that I was GMing) that was based on Tippy's postings. Only instead of create food traps it was a sustenance trap, but it was the same net effect, Oh and there were construction golems, table traps that cast heroes feast in the main Banquet hall (for special occasions), prestidigitation traps for cleaning up, summon monster traps for training the young up and comers in arenas (cheap source of XP, also various craftsmen got some xp their before building stuff), Healing Traps, Resurrection traps, Planeshift/Teleport Traps, and the big one, the Wish trap in the meeting chamber. The players had a base of operations, and could go about their business, and there was the added benefit, that if I wanted them to be a higher level before an adventure, they had a convenient place to grind.

So... you made the Tippyverse in game. Have a cookie, on me.

[Jack_Simth]

There is no such 'place' as the Tippyverse. The 'Tippyverse' is a place where Players can actually do whatever they like and 'RAW is Law' and GMs apparently don't exist. Magic seems to work a different way when Tippy describes it.

Pretty much. It also requires some conceptual changes from medievalist thought that aren't likely to occur to anyone other than players.

It's almost like you expected something other than that?

Well, it mostly came up when he kept trying to insist that he wasn't building an evil empire in building and maintaining a Tippy community.

It's not an evil empire ... but he deals with simple business competition (someone else offering similiar services, who doesn't want to buy in to Tippy's control) by destroying his opponents infrastructure and mindraping his competitors into working for him if they don't deal with him willingly.

It's not an evil empire ... but if the local government decides to impose tarriffs on goods going through a Teleportation Circle he put up in the area is dealt with by either killing and replacing the government officials, or mind-controlling them all.

It's not an evil empire ... but his plans are to offer most services for free, initially, gain a monopolistic stranglehold on the community, and then start charging after there is no competition anymore.

It was mostly the "not evil" bit he kept insisting on that I didn't agree with. Mind you, if you do it right, you CAN get a non-evil version of the Tippyverse (you permit competition to exist, and charge a small amount for all services from the get-go, then hire everyone who needs hiring for make-work that doesn't appear to be make-work)... but that wasn't in Emperor Tippy's version of it.

[TheCountAlucard]

Didn't another aspect of the Tippyverse involve systematically murdering all rogues, so as to prevent them from disarming said traps?

[Tyrmatt]

When I saw the title of this thread, I automatically assumed it was a room that started to fill up with bread and water after players tripped it, slowly suffocating them...
I'm sensing a Candyland style campaign here.

[MeklorIlavator]

Pretty much. It also requires some conceptual changes from medievalist thought that aren't likely to occur to anyone other than players.

Well, that ignores the question of how a "medievalist" thought process came to be in a world so unsuited for said thought process.

Plus, I'm not quite sure if that even works, as the idea should apeal to any aggressive noble: no need for farmers means that you're army can swell to a ridiculous size(for the time) quite easily, which would give you an advantage over other armies.

[oxybe]

The evil breadbox trap:

this is a large yet simple chest containing 3 shelves with 5 compartments each (5 long ones side by side, each with a removable wooden cup on the end).

when opened, a "DING!" noise (like that of a small bell) will be heard and it will instantly create 15 400g loaves of bread and fill the 15 cups with water. the bread is highly nutritious and will taste sweet and freshly baked upon removal, though after an hour it will start becoming bland, and after a day it will become stale and decay. the cups contain rainwater, cold and fresh.

cost:
CLERIC
500x5x3 (7500) GP (Create food and water -> 15 loaves & drinking water on open)
40x5x3 (600) XP

WIZARD
0.5x1x2000 (1000) GP ("continuously" casts prestidigitation -> all food inside tastes like fresh bread on open)
1000/25 (40) XP

so for 8500 GP you can have an unlimited amount of delicious bread (for the first hour) and water.

[The Glyphstone]

Tangentially related to the topic, but amusing enough to be worth it, was a homebrew Assassin base class written by Tippy that I once saw...its level 20 capstone ability was the ability to ignore/be immune to Mindrape or any similar effect while fooling the caster into believing the effect worked fine. i wasn't surprised in the least.

[Asbestos]

Had a group of Psions, Wizards, and Clerics of Baccob create a Plane once (for a game that I was GMing) that was based on Tippy's postings. Only instead of create food traps it was a sustenance trap, but it was the same net effect, Oh and there were construction golems, table traps that cast heroes feast in the main Banquet hall (for special occasions), prestidigitation traps for cleaning up, summon monster traps for training the young up and comers in arenas (cheap source of XP, also various craftsmen got some xp their before building stuff), Healing Traps, Resurrection traps, Planeshift/Teleport Traps, and the big one, the Wish trap in the meeting chamber. The players had a base of operations, and could go about their business, and there was the added benefit, that if I wanted them to be a higher level before an adventure, they had a convenient place to grind.

I would be interested in knowing how much GP that cost... and how much gold that physically is... and if there is even that much gold in the world.

Do people ever consider this problem in D&D? That gold is a finite resource and only worth anything because of its rarity? I think estimates put all the gold ever mined ever to be at 158,000 tonnes. Since 3.x has weight for GP we can, assuming that GP is 24k gold (or we can drop it down to 18k if we want, but that needs more math), calculate what percentage of the total earth's supply of gold the party would need access to in order to produce such a ludicrous situation.


I figure that no one in the Tippyverse is concerned about the cat girls.


Edit: Found a useful measurement. 1 pound of gold dust = 50 gp in D&D therefor 50 gp = 1lb of 25k gold. Therefor the above example of the fresh bread and water trap requires 170 lbs of pure gold. This works out to 2720 english system ounces of gold... but gold is commonly done in troy ounces which are about 14 and 7/12 to the lb. Gold bars are most commonly 400 troy ounces so... its 6 bars of pure 24k gold and change to make that single above trap. Or if you use the 3.x exchange system it is: 8,500 lbs of cinnamon, 8,500 goats, 1,700 pounds of salt, 850 cows, or 2,833 and third pigs.

Also... how exactly is wealth spent in item creation? Are you literally buying stuff? Does a Tippyverse creation cause the crash of the local economy before it is even up and running?

[SurlySeraph]

Didn't another aspect of the Tippyverse involve systematically murdering all rogues, so as to prevent them from disarming said traps?

I believe so, yes. I also remember an Assassin homebrew base class that Tippy made, as a thought experiment to see what kind of individual you would need to threaten the control of the wizards. Among other things, it had explicit immunity to mindrape.

EDIT: And I got multi-simu'd. No surprise, really.

On another note, has anyone considered actually homebrewing the Tippyverse as a campaign setting? It'd be very interesting to play in, especially if you played as non-full-casters trying to overthrow the wizards.

[MeklorIlavator]

On another note, has anyone considered actually homebrewing the Tippyverse as a campaign setting? It'd be very interesting to play in, especially if you played as non-full-casters trying to overthrow the wizards.

Well, Kinda. I believe Tippy did make his world in some manner(he ran a champaign in one such place), but really, the world is simple: there are X number of Cities(where all the really amazing stuff happens, ruled by high level full casters). Then there is the zone a few miles around the cities, that is essentially clear land. No big threats, though there are small settlements. This is essentially the perfect area for low level characters. Finally, there are the wilds, far enough from any one city that there are substantial threats(to mid-level parties, not to actual Cities). That's essentially it.

Note that in a "True" Tippy verse non-casters can't win unless the casters let them/give them large amount of assistance.

I actually have been using this for my homebrewed world(it was Tippyverse, but due to events has fallen).