Seeker of the Song - capstone power?

[Epinephrine]

Is the capstone power not really weak?

It banishes extraplanar creatures who fail a Will save DC 10+Perform ranks; the creature adds its HD to the Will save.

a) it's very foe-specific; banishing extraplanar creatures.
b) it's an easy save, since the creatures add their HD to it.

You gain the power at level 20, minimum. A CR 9 Bone Devil has a +11 Will save, with +10 for its HD, making the save on a 12. Barbed Devils make the save on a 9, and Horned Devils make their save on a 3.

This power is basically useless against anything close to the CR you would be fighting; at level 20 you don't even get XP for CR12 foes - an Ice Devil is CR13 and makes the save on a 4.

Has anyone played with this, and did you modify it? If so, what did you do to make it reasonable?

[DrizztFan24]

Welcome to 3.5. All of those 10+level+modifier saves become pretty useless after about 3 levels.

[Eldariel]

Welcome to 3.5. All of those 10+level+modifier saves become pretty useless after about 3 levels.

What? Wizards are throwing around saves opponents fail on level 20. That said, this particular ability unfortunately lacks the stat. Same is true for a handful of other poorly designed abilities (you need to look no further than DMG and Arcane Archer's Arrow of Death), which are indeed pretty worthless. As a rule of thumb:
10+½ level/full PrC level+stat = good
anything less = useless

[Telonius]

It's that stupid bonus HD+will save that makes it terrible. Without it, at level 20, you're looking at a DC 10+23 =33 save. If you remove that bonus, a Pit Fiend gets a +21, and a Balor gets a +19. Pit fiend saves on a 12, Balor saves on a 14, so it's a 55-65% successful banishing rate.

Compare that to the Dismissal spell. A level 20 Cleric, let's call his Wisdom 32, so +11. Spell DC is 10+4+11=25. Dismissal DC for the Pit Fiend = 25-18hd+20CL = 27. For the Balor, 25-20+20=25. Wizard's DCs would be one higher, since the spell is a 5th-level Wizard spell; and this is all before any additions from Spell Focus, etc. But as is, Balor saves on an 8, and Pit Fiend saves on a 6; 25-35% success. The spell is also subject to Spell Resistance, while the Seeker capstone (as a Supernatural ability) is not.

Honestly, just take away the HD bonus to will, and it's fine. It's a little better than Dismissal (a 4th or 5th level spell), gives a nice flavorful "played the best song in the world" victory element to the game, and is in no way overpowered for a level 20 ability.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's that stupid bonus HD+will save that makes it terrible. Without it, at level 20, you're looking at a DC 10+23 =33 save. If you remove that bonus, a Pit Fiend gets a +21, and a Balor gets a +19. Pit fiend saves on a 12, Balor saves on a 14, so it's a 55-65% successful banishing rate.

Compare that to the Dismissal spell. A level 20 Cleric, let's call his Wisdom 32, so +11. Spell DC is 10+4+11=25. Dismissal DC for the Pit Fiend = 25-18hd+20CL = 27. For the Balor, 25-20+20=25. Wizard's DCs would be one higher, since the spell is a 5th-level Wizard spell; and this is all before any additions from Spell Focus, etc. But as is, Balor saves on an 8, and Pit Fiend saves on a 6; 25-35% success. The spell is also subject to Spell Resistance, while the Seeker capstone (as a Supernatural ability) is not.

Honestly, just take away the HD bonus to will, and it's fine. It's a little better than Dismissal (a 4th or 5th level spell), gives a nice flavorful "played the best song in the world" victory element to the game, and is in no way overpowered for a level 20 ability.

It's actually weak, since the Wizards and Clerics are tossing 9th level slots for their SoDs. That means they're looking at DC 30 before SF, Veil of Allure, or similar. And theirs aren't limited to type.

[Keld Denar]

What the ability doesn't tell you is that if you put ranks in Perform: Fiddle, the DC increases to 10 + 2x ranks in Perform, and the outsider doesn't get to add his HD to the save. Rule of Cool applies.

I DUN TOLD YOU ONCE YOU SON OF A B****, I'M THE BEST THATS EVER BEEN!

[Ascension]

gives a nice flavorful "played the best song in the world" victory element to the game

Do you forget it after you play it?

I am in no way claiming this is as good a reference as The Devil Came to Georgia, but I was already beaten to that punch.

[Lamech]

Hmmm... I'm not sure if this would fly but... You could have say preform (fiddle), preform (weapon drill), preform (power-gaming) and preform (waltzing), and wouldn't the save DC be 10+24+24+24+24? It says ranks in "the preform skill" And this theoretical person has ranks in the preform skill 96?

Or is this just a badly written ablity?

[Eldariel]

Hmmm... I'm not sure if this would fly but... You could have say preform (fiddle), preform (weapon drill), preform (power-gaming) and preform (waltzing), and wouldn't the save DC be 10+24+24+24+24? It says ranks in "the preform skill" And this theoretical person has ranks in the preform skill 96?

Or is this just a badly written ablity?

The different Perform-skills are separate.

[Tam_OConnor]

EDIT: IGNORE ME! *slaps self for making logical assumptions*

Woah, people. 10 + skill modifier. Have y'all not seen what people can do to skill modifiers? +89 to diplomacy at 6th level. Admittedly, less things modify perform, but with twenty levels, +30 circumstance bonus items are cheap. Done right, it might be too powerful.

Also, the percentage of [extraplanar] creatures tends to increase as you get higher level, so applicability is less of a problem.

[Gorbash]

It's 10 + Skill ranks. Try to keep up.

The thing about this ability is that it affects all extraplanar creatures within 60 feet, meaning in large combats with a lot of demons, there will be some 1s and 2s rolled. And they can do it like 20 times a day. I wouldn't underestimate it, even by RAW.

[ZeroNumerous]

I would call it very weak. Why? Because at level 20 you shouldn't be on the Material Plane anyway. And guess what type comes and goes every time you aren't at home? So basically any Seeker of the Song can never travel off the Material Plane or he banishes himself. Good job hero.