4E: Overused and Underused Stats

[Grynning]

Note: I wrote this a week or two ago, but the forum was wonky and ate it. I've now slightly revised it due to the release of Arcane Power.

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I've been mulling over some race modifiers vs. available classes and I decided to do a little bit of collating, because it really seems to me that a couple of stats, particularly Con and Dex, are not getting nearly enough love in 4th ed. So I've piled together this little list, it's not pretty but it may prove useful to homebrewers, optimizers etc. It's a comparison of the stats, broken down by races which receive a bonus, and the classes which use them.

STR
Races which receive a bonus: 9
Bugbear, Dragonborn, Genasi, Goliath, Half-Orc, Longtooth Shifter, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged
Classes - Primary: 7
Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Warden, Warlord
Classes - Secondary: 5
Cleric, Paladin, Rogue, Sorcerer, Swordmage

DEX
Races which receive a bonus: 14
Bladeling, Bugbear, Drow, Eladrin, Elf, Githzerai, Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling, Half-Orc, Kobold, Razorclaw Shifter, Shadar-Kai
Classes - Primary: 2
Ranger, Rogue
Classes - Secondary: 6
Avenger, Fighter, Druid, Sorcerer, Ranger (sort of), Wizard

CON
Races which receive a bonus: 10
Dwarf, Githyanki, Gnoll, Goliath, Hobgoblin, Half-Elf, Kobold, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged
Classes - Primary: 1
Warlock
Classes - Secondary: 9
Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Fighter, Invoker, Shaman, Swordmage, Warden, Wizard

INT
Races which receive a bonus: 8
Deva, Doppleganger, Eladrin, Genasi, Gnome, Githyanki, Shadar-Kai, Tiefling
Classes - Primary: 2
Swordmage, Wizard
Classes - Secondary: 6
Avenger, Bard, Invoker, Shaman, Warlock, Warlord

WIS
Races which receive a bonus: 7
Bladeling, Deva, Dwarf, Elf, Githzerai, Longtooth Shifter, Razorclaw Shifter
Classes - Primary: 5
Avenger, Cleric, Druid, Invoker, Shaman
Classes - Secondary: 7
Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Warden, Wizard

CHA
Races which receive a bonus: 6
Doppleganger, Dragonborn, Gnome, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Tiefling
Classes - Primary: 4
Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock (Fey and Star)
Classes - Secondary: 5
Barbarian, Cleric, Paladin, Rogue, Warlord

So, my simple method for determining if a stat is overused or underused is this: If the total of the primary & secondary classes is 3 or more GREATER than the number of races with an available bonus, the stat is OVERUSED, i.e., choosing one of the classes with that stat used will limit your racial choice. If the total of the classes is 3 or more LESS than the number of races with a bonus, the stat is UNDERUSED, meaning that choosing one of those races will limit you choice of class.

Most Overused Stat: WIS, with 5 more classes than races, followed by STR and CHA with 3 more each
Most Underused Stat: DEX, with a whopping 6 more races than classes

Also of note is that while Wisdom and Con both break even on race/class split, they are rarely primary stats. Meanwhile, Strength is more often a Primary than a secondary.

I really hope future supplements will make an effort to address this. I know that stats aren't everything in 4th ed, and that the flavor of some of the stats is mutable, but it really bugs me that to optimize, you have to severely limit your pool of race/class combos, and that the stat with the highest number of racial bonuses is one of the least used (especially considering that it's DEX - I mean, nimble, agile heroes are pretty damn iconic - I would say more so than "wise" or "charismatic" ones).

As a secondary topic, since 4th ed's mechanics and fluff are so segregated, how easily do you think it would be to swap one stat for another to fit concepts? I.E. someone wants to make a Prescient Bard that uses Dex instead of Wis, or a DM decides Tieflings should get a Con bonus instead of a Cha bonus, changing their favored classes a bit. Are there any classes that would be totally ruined by swapping a secondary stat, as long as the DM and player agreed on the flavor?

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe they'll make a Defender at some point that has CON as a primary stat - a class that's so tough, people hurt themselves when they attack you.

[Asbestos]

Yeah, but how many DEX based classes can you have that aren't just rogues and rangers?

However... I think that the monk (and maybe a ninja if they make one) will make use of Dex. So that should help... some.

[amanamana]

Maybe they'll make a Defender at some point that has CON as a primary stat - a class that's so tough, people hurt themselves when they attack you.

I would play that!

[TrashCat]

Your methodology is slightly limited, though it does highlight some interesting trends. I think a thoroughly fair analysis should also consider how your ability scores are used in skill checks and feat selection. A stat that is "underused" in terms of its designation as a primary/secondary ability for classes might make up for it by being super useful in other ways, and vice versa.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with any of your conclusions, though, as I haven't looked into this myself. Just pointing out that there might be more to the picture.

[Reverent-One]

One thing about the abundance of Dex boosting races that should be noted is that 3 of them are typical monster races that are not generally used by players (Kobold, Goblin, Bugbear), 3 are the Elf variants (Drow, Elf, Eladrin), and 3 are also rather uncommon races for players to be (Shadar-ki, Bladelings, and Githzeri).

[Grynning]

Your methodology is slightly limited, though it does highlight some interesting trends. I think a thoroughly fair analysis should also consider how your ability scores are used in skill checks and feat selection. A stat that is "underused" in terms of its designation as a primary/secondary ability for classes might make up for it by being super useful in other ways, and vice versa.

I did consider that, but players build their characters around class, which also dictates skills. For the most part, a class that uses particular attributes will have class skills that key off those stats. Not to mention that most players really only need a couple of skills to contribute, as a well balanced party can cover for each other skill wise rather easily. In my experience, stat bonuses to skills are also less important than race and training; the +5 bonus from training, racial bonuses and feat bonuses can easily make up for a lower stat.

Not to mention that Con is only used for one skill as well. It truly is the red-headed dump stat in 4th ed

[Oracle_Hunter]

Not to mention that Con is only used for one skill as well. It truly is the red-headed dump stat in 4th ed

Except for its use in setting HP, your total number of Healing Surges, and for qualifying for Axe and Hammer Feats, as well as Hide and Plate Specialization.

You actually might want to look at Feat dependence too - Heavy Blade Fighters, for instance, care more about DEX than WIS, but Polearm Fighters care a lot about WIS. Qualifying for Feats is one of the broader considerations when looking at stat allocation.

[Grynning]

People seem to be construing this as some sort of judgment on a stat's "usefulness." I didn't intend it that way, I was pointing out that the designers have kind of made it so that there's a poor mix of racial stat bonuses vs. available classes.

In response to others' comments on Con/Dex etc...feat qualification is kind of a secondary concern to me...a class build should be able to work without needing any specific feats. And again, if you want a particular feat, it's likely that your class will already emphasize that stat you need for it. The only real exceptions are armor proficiencies and multi-class feats.

As for Con specifically, Con's effect on your total HP pretty much ends after first level, and while Toughness and Durable are good feats, to be sure, they're not must haves. You'd probably only grab them if your build already incorporated Con in some way. Granted, no one really wants a Con penalty, and anyone who doesn't have a high Str will want it a bit for a good Fort defense, but that doesn't make it unique from any of the other stats as they all boost one NAD now.

[tcrudisi]

Yesterday I did some related research. I took all the 2 stat combos and looked at which races fit those classes. This functions as a quick-list if you are playing a class and you want +2 to two different stats, for instance. Also, it's important to note that Humans are not represented, since they are the only race that give +2 to only one stat.


Str & Con: Goliath, Minotaur, Orc, Warforged
Str & Dex: Half-Orc, Bugbear
Str & Int: Genasi
Str & Cha: Dragonborn
Str & Wis: Longtooth Shifter
Con & Dex: Gnoll, Kobold
Con & Int: Githyanki
Con & Cha: Half-Elf, Hobgoblin
Con & Wis: Dwarf
Dex & Int: Eladrin, Shadar-Kai
Dex & Cha: Halfling, Drow, Goblin
Dex & Wis: Elf, Razorclaw Shifter, Bladeling, Githzerai
Int & Cha: Tiefling, Gnome, Doppelganger
Int & Wis: Deva
Cha & Wis: .....

The only 2-stat combo that has not been represented yet is Cha & Wis. I cried a little bit inside, since that's the combo used for Prescient Bards, and I desperately want to play one. I hope Eberron PHB or PHB 3 resolves this.

Edit: (Since I don't want to hijack this thread, please message me any response). Can someone please explain to me Half-Elves? They have two halves: human and elf. Let's look at this objectively. Humans get +2 to one stat. Elves get +2 to Dex and Wis. Now, a half-elf in 4e is much different than its predecessors in previous editions in that they are well-liked, even getting a bonus to Diplomacy and even making others in the party better received (+Diplomacy for them). So the +cha makes sense, and we'll assume that came from the Human side. Now, what about the +Con? You can't say they were beat up as kids, because they are well-liked! So what would their elf parentage give them? Logic dictates Wis or Dex. Nope, they get Con. If anyone has come up with a good reason why this is so, please send me a message, as I don't want to hijack this thread. :-P

[skywalker]

Edit: (Since I don't want to hijack this thread, please message me any response). Can someone please explain to me Half-Elves? They have two halves: human and elf. Let's look at this objectively. Humans get +2 to one stat. Elves get +2 to Dex and Wis. Now, a half-elf in 4e is much different than its predecessors in previous editions in that they are well-liked, even getting a bonus to Diplomacy and even making others in the party better received (+Diplomacy for them). So the +cha makes sense, and we'll assume that came from the Human side. Now, what about the +Con? You can't say they were beat up as kids, because they are well-liked! So what would their elf parentage give them? Logic dictates Wis or Dex. Nope, they get Con. If anyone has come up with a good reason why this is so, please send me a message, as I don't want to hijack this thread. :-P

I think others will be curious, so I'm not messaging you

This conversation has been had before, my opinion is that they may actually have been beaten up as kids, which explains the toughness, and that they had to learn charisma. I think in general, charisma gets you by in a world that's pre-disposed to hate you, and when charisma doesn't, toughness is a good thing to fall back on...

[Oracle_Hunter]

I think others will be curious, so I'm not messaging you

This conversation has been had before, my opinion is that they may actually have been beaten up as kids, which explains the toughness, and that they had to learn charisma. I think in general, charisma gets you by in a world that's pre-disposed to hate you, and when charisma doesn't, toughness is a good thing to fall back on...

I figured they were going for the Tolkienesque Half-Elf - super hot and super tough humans. Like Aragorn.

[Alteran]

As for Con specifically, Con's effect on your total HP pretty much ends after first level, and while Toughness and Durable are good feats, to be sure, they're not must haves.

The major importance of Con is not on your total health, but on your number of healing surges. This is more important for defenders or other classes that will need to be healed frequently, but it is very significant.

Having health is important, but at times the ability to be healed is even more important. If you have 10 Con 50 health, having 14 Con would only bring that up to 54. However, two more times per day you could be healed 13 health.

[RTGoodman]

If anyone has come up with a good reason why this is so, please send me a message, as I don't want to hijack this thread. :-P

Hybrid Vigor.

As far as overused stats, consider the kinds of classes we have so far. We've got a bunch of Martial and Primal classes that beat people, so that's your abundance of Str, and we've got a bunch of a Divine and Primal classes that are in touch with gods/nature and rely on Wis, and we've got a bunch of folks from different power sources that use their Charisma.

Dex, on the other hand, is something that can only be used in a few different ways (ranged or finesse fighting), so we won't see much of that, Con is kind of a weird stat to base anything on anyway, and Int isn't really used outside of magic, and we've only got a couple of those kinds of classes anyway. However, a lot of classes DABBLE in those scores, so their not as useless as they might seem.

With PHB3 having probably Psionic and Ki power sources (and maybe Shadow), I think we'll probably see more Int-based ones (Psions, etc.), some Dex ones (Ninja, maybe), and maybe some Con ones. Of course, there's probably be several Wis-based ones, and probably Cha, too, so it won't change things TOO much.

[ghost_warlock]

Maybe they'll make a Defender at some point that has CON as a primary stat - a class that's so tough, people hurt themselves when they attack you.

I would play that!

Can I get a 'Hell, yeah!'?

As for other Con-based classes, I'd love to see the 4e egoist (psion) be a shapeshifter (similar to the druid) that relies on Con for its attacks while shapeshifted (similar to the druid with Wis in its various beastforms). Role would likely be a defender/leader hybrid. Tons of hp and mobility with some self-healing abilities (perhaps similar to the berserker fighter that has all the abilities to heal itself when attacked or attacking). Secondary stats would probably be Int and/or Wis, depending on whether the build focuses more on defender- or leader-type abilities (Int for the defender, with a secondary bonus of having a higher Reflex defense. Wis for the leader, resulting in a higher Will defense.) I imagine shapeshifted forms to have poison attacks (X-damage until save), perhaps use spider-webbing attacks to cause immobilizations, etc. and give some degree of a controller-ish aspect to the class.

The only 2-stat combo that has not been represented yet is Cha & Wis. I cried a little bit inside, since that's the combo used for Prescient Bards, and I desperately want to play one. I hope Eberron PHB or PHB 3 resolves this.

Do we have stats for any Eberron races other than shifters and warforged, yet? Because Wis & Cha just screams Kalashtar to me...

[skywalker]

I figured they were going for the Tolkienesque Half-Elf - super hot and super tough humans. Like Aragorn.

Also probably a pretty good one.

[AgentPaper]

Also of note is that while Wisdom and Con both break even on race/class split, they are rarely primary stats. Meanwhile, Strength is more often a Primary than a secondary.

I think you mean Int and Con here.

I think it might be relevant to see how this works out if you don't include the races from the monster manual, or even only include the races from the PHB I&II. None of those are really meant to be used as PCs so much as for NPCs, though a player will tell you different, if only because he wants to be an awesome bugbear (insert martial class here).