Martial Adepts and Ranged Weapons

[Lycanthromancer]

I keep hearing about how martial adepts are only proficient with melee weapons, and not with ranged weapons.

This is wrong.

Crusaders are proficient in all simple and martial weapons.

Swordsages are proficient in all simple weapons and martial melee weapons (including thrown weapons).

Warblades are proficient in simple and martial melee weapons (including thrown weapons).

Only the warblade is non-proficient in ranged non-throwing weapons (though swordsages are restricted to simple ranged weaponry).

Check the ToB class descriptions, people.

[ShadowFighter15]

It's not that they aren't proficient with them, it's that they can't use many of their manoeuvres with ranged attacks. There may be one or two in the whole book that can work with ranged weapons (not counting stances for obvious reasons), but on the whole, there's no point to a martial adept taking a ranged weapon.

[Bluebeard]

It's not that they aren't proficient with them, it's that they can't use many of their manoeuvres with ranged attacks. There may be one or two in the whole book that can work with ranged weapons (not counting stances for obvious reasons), but on the whole, there's no point to a martial adept taking a ranged weapon.

Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand and Desert Wind boosts with Diamond Mind counters isn't bad.

But as a whole, even though ToB characters are technically 'Proficient' with ranged weapons, they aren't 'proficient' with them in the 'good at it' sense.

[Lycanthromancer]

Tell that to all the people I've seen saying exactly that: that martial adepts "aren't proficient" with ranged weaponry.

They probably shouldn't be saying it if it isn't true.

[ShadowFighter15]

Well those guys are just idiots then; point them to the class description (or quote the relevant section) or just ignore them.

[sonofzeal]

Eh, it's true in spirit at least. Martial Adepts are specifically discouraged from using ranged weapons at every step of the way. Swordsages and Warblades aren't proficient with bows, and even Crusaders can't do much of anything worthwhile with them.

[snoopy13a]

Are you sure?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...060802a&page=2

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You are proficient with simple and martial melee weapons (including those that can be used as thrown weapons), light and medium armor, and all shields except tower shields.

However, the sample Warblade template has this for equipment:

Human WarbladeStarting Package

Armor: Scale mail (+4 AC, armor check penalty -4, speed 20 ft., 30 lb.).

Heavy wooden shield (+2 AC, armor check penalty -2, 10 lb.).

Weapons: Longsword (1d8, crit 19-20/x2, 4 lb., one-handed slashing).

Shortbow (1d6, crit x3, range inc. 60 ft., 2 lb., piercing).

A bit confusing in my book.

[Severedevil]

It's also popular to assume that a primarily melee combatant can't ever use a ranged weapon, ever.

People are silly.

[Thrawn183]

Just to take the opposing side for the sake of discussion.

If you're trying to provide a challenge for a party that isn't right up a ToB character's alley, ranged is a beautiful way to go. Why? Because ToB characters are built for melee. Sure, nothing's stopping a ToB character from whipping out a bow or crossbow. It's just not something they're ever truly going to excel at.

[Lycanthromancer]

Are you sure?

I looked directly at the descriptions for the ToB classes, and only the warblade is restricted from ranged weaponry (sans thrown weapons). Swordsages are restricted to simple ranged weapons, and crusaders aren't restricted at all.

[Zhalath]

I think people are just substituting "not very good with" with "proficient". It's just a language issue, not people getting the rules wrong (except when it is )

Barbarians can use bows too. Ever seen a barbarian use a bow?

Also, to whoever brought up the stat block, a good amount of stat blocks generated in D&D books don't actually work (I saw someone who had levels in a prestige class but didn't have any of the skill ranks necessary). I wouldn't trust them.

[Learnedguy]

I think people are just substituting "not very good with" with "proficient". It's just a language issue, not people getting the rules wrong (except when it is )

Barbarians can use bows too. Ever seen a barbarian use a bow?

Also, to whoever brought up the stat block, a good amount of stat blocks generated in D&D books don't actually work (I saw someone who had levels in a prestige class but didn't have any of the skill ranks necessary). I wouldn't trust them.

A barbarian with a composite longbow (or perhaps two) would be an interesting concept to play. You're still able to use ranged weapons while raging, right?

[Bulwer]

A barbarian with a composite longbow (or perhaps two) would be an interesting concept to play. You're still able to use ranged weapons while raging, right?

I'm playing a dexterity-based Barbarian in a PbP game here. He uses a variant rage, called Ferocity, from a Cityscape web enhancement, that boosts Dex instead of Str. It limits him to ranged attacks within 30 feet, though.

[sonofzeal]

A barbarian with a composite longbow (or perhaps two) would be an interesting concept to play. You're still able to use ranged weapons while raging, right?

No, no, no - slings all the way. Bows only have a static Str mod, and while you can buy two, getting all your enhancements on both is going to be expensive. Slings on the other hand still have solid range, and get str-to-damage naturally (and variably), allowing you to mix and match Str-buffs freely. And Barbarians actually make really good slingers, because their high speed helps them outmaneuver enemies who need to close to melee.

[Bluebeard]

No, no, no - slings all the way. Bows only have a static Str mod, and while you can buy two, getting all your enhancements on both is going to be expensive. Slings on the other hand still have solid range, and get str-to-damage naturally (and variably), allowing you to mix and match Str-buffs freely. And Barbarians actually make really good slingers, because their high speed helps them outmaneuver enemies who need to close to melee.

Is there a Rapid Reload equivalent for slings?

[Eldariel]

Barbarians actually make awesome Archers. Give him a Composite Longbow and Whirling Frenzy - enjoy your increased damage and extra attack. They kick Fighter's ass for sure.

[Morty]

Tell that to all the people I've seen saying exactly that: that martial adepts "aren't proficient" with ranged weaponry.

They probably shouldn't be saying it if it isn't true.

Well, maybe, just maybe, they were referring to the fact that Warblades aren't proficient with martial ranged weapons. Which of course doesn't mean that "martial adepts aren't proficient with ranged weapons", but isn't completely false either, as ToB generally doesn't support ranged combat. Of course, that's assuming not everyone making a semi-unfavorable comment about ToB is stupid.

[Keld Denar]

Hmmmm, ok, so I just looked it up myself, and this is interesting. So, a Crusader is profiecient with ALL non-exotic weapons. A Swordsage is proficient with all simple weapons (ie, crossbows) but not martial ranged weapons (no longbow), and a Warblade is only proficient with melee weapons from either catagory, except ranged weapons that can be thrown.

So, you could use Crusader to qualify for EK, but not SS or Warblade. Interesting...

As far as manuevers go, besides Xing Mongoose and Time Stands Still, the only ones that really work with ranged are ones that don't involve attacking at all. I looked up all the Desert Wind boosts and stances, and they all requires MELEE attacks, which, without BSB, can never apply to ranged attacks.

So, you are really looking at:
Shadowhand Teleports
Sudden Leap
Quicksilver Motion
Diamond Mind Counters
White Raven Tactics
Ironheart Surge
Ironheart Parry (provided you have throwing weapons that can be used in melee)
Most Setting Sun counters (assuming you have a hand free)
etc

and a few stances that have passive benefits like
Stance of Alacrity
Bolstering Voice
Wolf Pack Tactics
Swooping Dragon
Absolute Steel
Inferno Cloak
Pearl of Black Doubt
etc

[Lycanthromancer]

No, no, no - slings all the way. Bows only have a static Str mod, and while you can buy two, getting all your enhancements on both is going to be expensive. Slings on the other hand still have solid range, and get str-to-damage naturally (and variably), allowing you to mix and match Str-buffs freely. And Barbarians actually make really good slingers, because their high speed helps them outmaneuver enemies who need to close to melee.

A bow of the wintermoon (or an elvencrafted version of it) automatically adjusts for your Strength score. If elvencrafted is added, you can use it as either a bow or a quarterstaff, whichever is more useful at the moment (you can even interchange attacks during a full attack action). Great for a barbarian, and pretty cheap, too.

I made a deepcrystal elvencrafted bow of the wintermoon for my anthro-bat psychic warrior, and I plan on using strength of my enemy to its fullest, once I get both Rapid Shot and physical acceleration (ie, self-only psionic haste). Vampirically-draining Str from foes is niiiiice.

[sonofzeal]

Is there a Rapid Reload equivalent for slings?

Do you need Rapid Reload for slings? I thought that feat was only necessary for Crossbows, and that everything else (bows and slings included) effectively grant it for free.

A bow of the wintermoon (or an elvencrafted version of it) automatically adjusts for your Strength score. If elvencrafted is added, you can use it as either a bow or a quarterstaff, whichever is more useful at the moment (you can even interchange attacks during a full attack action). Great for a barbarian, and pretty cheap, too.

I made a deepcrystal elvencrafted bow of the wintermoon for my anthro-bat psychic warrior, and I plan on using strength of my enemy to its fullest, once I get both Rapid Shot and physical acceleration (ie, self-only psionic haste). Vampirically-draining Str from foes is niiiiice.

Isn't Bow of the Wintermoon a relic? Doesn't that mean you either need to burn a feat or a higher level spell slot to use it? Doesn't it also mean you can't "custom order" one with elvenbane or deepcrystal or whatnot, since it's so specific?

[Zhalath]

Is there a Rapid Reload equivalent for slings?

Don't need it. Slings are instant-reload. Dang, I should make a slinger.

[Teron]

Don't need it. Slings are instant-reload.

No, they're not.

[Lycanthromancer]

Don't need it. Slings are instant-reload. Dang, I should make a swinger.

Fixed. :P

I should make my anthropomorphic bat psychic warrior polyamorous.

[ShadowFighter15]

Also, to whoever brought up the stat block, a good amount of stat blocks generated in D&D books don't actually work (I saw someone who had levels in a prestige class but didn't have any of the skill ranks necessary). I wouldn't trust them.

That reminds me of two of the cohort characters in "Storm of Zehir"; a Sun Elf Favoured Soul who was missing her free Weapon Focus feat (it's apparently a common bug) and a Cleric/Doomguide who was missing the feat that would continue his Cleric spellcasting (it's how the game handles spell progression for PrCs; you take a feat with it's first level that specifies which class' spellcasting is being progressed by the PrC, this guy didn't have that feat so his spellcasting was horribly limited). Thankfully, both of those could be fixed with the simple "AddFeat" cheat. Damn annoying that those slipped through though.

And then there was the ranger cohort who had a named crossbow, but had chosen the two-weapon-fighting style instead of the archery one (though would the archery one work with crossbows?).

[monty]

(though would the archery one work with crossbows?).

It says "archery," but most of it works with any ranged attacks.

[AslanCross]

I'm one of the people who've said that Martial Adepts don't have any ranged weapon profs, and I realize I've made a mistake. I rarely think about crossbows when I think about ranged weapons (mostly because the composite bows are simply way more effective due to better rate of fire).

To set the record straight:
-Crusaders have proficiency in all simple and martial weapons.
-Swordsages and Warblades have proficiency in simple weapons, and martial melee weapons.

That's pretty much it.

[Keld Denar]

To set the record straight:
-Crusaders have proficiency in all simple and martial weapons.
-Swordsages and Warblades have proficiency in simple weapons, and martial melee weapons.

Close, as I said in my post, Swordsages are actually proficient with ALL simple weapons (like crossbows), while Warblades are only proficient with simple melee and martial melee weapons (no crossbows). Check out the difference in text:

As a swordsage, you are proficient with simple weapons, martial melee weapons (including those that can be used as thrown weapons), and light armor, but not with shields.

You are proficient with simple and martial melee weapons (including those that can be used as thrown weapons), light and medium armor, and all shields except tower shields.

Notice how for swordsage, it states simple weapons then martial melee weapons in a list deliniated with a coma, which makes each a unique item with its own discriptors. In the warblade entry, it lumps simple and martial together as melee weapons, without the coma seperator. That means that they are grouped together and share the melee only part.

I dunno, might be interesting to see someone's interpretation of this who doesn't have an english copy of ToB, since, like 9/10 other wonky RAW interpretations, its probably a credit to poor editing.

[AslanCross]

Close, as I said in my post, Swordsages are actually proficient with ALL simple weapons (like crossbows), while Warblades are only proficient with simple melee and martial melee weapons (no crossbows). Check out the difference in text:





Notice how for swordsage, it states simple weapons then martial melee weapons in a list deliniated with a coma, which makes each a unique item with its own discriptors. In the warblade entry, it lumps simple and martial together as melee weapons, without the coma seperator. That means that they are grouped together and share the melee only part.

I dunno, might be interesting to see someone's interpretation of this who doesn't have an english copy of ToB, since, like 9/10 other wonky RAW interpretations, its probably a credit to poor editing.

I have to admit that the proficiency entries are usually really easy to gloss over.