[3.5] Metamorphosis

[Lappy9000]

I'll be frank; is Metamorphosis as easily broken as Polymorph? Basically, is it any more balanced? I'm considering using it as a replacement for polymorph, but I'm really not any good at telling this sort of thing.

[Shinizak]

Everything has the potential to be over powered, it just takes a creative individual to break it. In other words tell us less about the spell and more about why you're asking the question and we'll see what we can do.

[Lappy9000]

Okaaay. Edited main post.

[Shinizak]

I see, In my opinion it's the same spell with a small difference in wording.

[Kyeudo]

Metamorphosis has most of the potential for abuse that polymorph does, IIRC. It's major limiting factor is that it is self only and only a Egoist gets it naturally on his power list. All others have to spend a feat to get it.

However, this means it is limited to the manifesting psionic classes, most of which don't have the hp and BAB to really get the most milage out of it. The one that does (psychic warrior) can't take it until 13th level and psywarriors are outragously capable buff-monkeys anyway.

[Bluebeard]

Metamorphosis is more fitting to the feel of a Transmuter.
It's also far more broken.
Metamorphic Transfer doesn't help.

And I'd argue that Ardents are the most effective Metamorphosis-users.
Not only do they start with decent melee frameworks, they also get Metamorphosis at level 7 and have Wisdom as a primary stat.

[Eldariel]

All abilities that can change your stats regardless of what they are presently (for casters who don't have the physicals to be fighters normally), can grant you ~20 points of extra armor, can grant you ~10 extra attacks, can grant you any creature's special attack, can grant you any creature's modes of movement and can grant you autosuccess on many disguise checks is going to be pretty much automatically broken.

Fact is that until Polymorph-type effects are fixed to depend on the character's own stats, be unable to grant 12 attacks, limitless stat boosts & natural armor and any attack modes and modes of movement, they're going to be by far the best at...just about anything. Simply because they can do so much. They are actually pretty hard to fix and they need it bad, so yea.

[Lycanthromancer]

As much as I love psionics, I agree that metamorphosis is excessively overpowered, and broken as a level 4 power. It'd be borderline broken as a level 9 power.

However, it gets its brokenness from polymorph, so I don't think psionics is wholly to blame for this.

My powers revision manages to take the flexibility of metamorphosis and makes it reasonably balanced as a 1st level power (or so I hope).

Feel free to use the rest of the revision if you like, as well.

[TheCountAlucard]

They are actually pretty hard to fix and they need it bad, so yea.

For that matter, what do you think of the Giant's fix?

[RTGoodman]

Fact is [...] they're going to be by far the best at...just about anything. Simply because they can do so much. They are actually pretty hard to fix and they need it bad, so yea.

Well, the solution Wizards seems to have finally found by the end of 3.x was specific polymorphing spells - one lets you take troll form, one lets you take dragon, etc. I think it's a good solution, if not any easy one since you'd have to have one for each form. You could do the same thing with psionics - just take the specific-form spells and convert them, and it should work out okay. You don't even have to worry about augments.

Another psionics-specific idea I just had was a single polymorph/metamorphosis power that gives you specific bonuses or a specific form, but that you can augment to take different forms or get better bonuses. I don't play with psionics enough to be able to come up with specifics, but it's a workable idea, right?

[Lycanthromancer]

See: my revision.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

My idea about Polymorph et al is to give each monster a 'Polymorph level' similar to LA, that is the minimum your caster level needs to be to turn into it. HD is just a poor rubric. Combine that with making most poly spells not able to affect the caster and banning Shapechange completely, and it is more balanced.

[The Glyphstone]

A divergent question....does Greater Metamorphosis's XP cost per manifestation make it more balanced than the flat focus cost of Shapechange?

[Jack_Simth]

For that matter, what do you think of the Giant's fix?

The Giant's fix is mostly just broken differently. When you use the Giant's fix to turn the Rogue into an X-headed Hydra, the Rogue now has better AC than the real thing to go with those X attacks all loaded up with Sneak Attack thanks to the Fighter's flank.

There's three basic approaches I'm aware of for fixing polymorph:
1) Variant Summoning. Part of Polymorph's power is that you can combine it with different class features. This approach removes that - if you turn someone into a creature, you turn them into that creature minus any problematical abilities (basically, you don't get the stuff that Polymorph wouldn't give you - so no turning into an Efreeti to grant your friends three free wishes). All preexisting effects are suppressed (so, for instance, a prior casting of Mage Armor does not remain in effect while the Polymorph lasts), class features are unavailable (so the Polymorphed rogue can't make use of Sneak Attack or Evasion, the Polymorphed Wizard can't cast spells, et cetera), racial abilities are unavailable (so the Elan can't use Resilience to reduce an attack), and so on. This can be balanced based on the CR of the target and the creature selected.
2) Mostly Illusion. Part of Polymorph's power is that it is completely open-ended; with even just a small amount of looking, you can find stuff that's completely out of line with spells of similar level - such as how the current Alter Self is much stronger than the Druid's Barkskin spell.. and that's for granting natural armor. This approach does away with that by specifying what and how much you get from the spell, in a discrete fashion rather than an open-ended fashion. If you turn someone into a creature, you don't start from the creature's statistics. Instead, it grants a small number of a limited set of buffs (controlled by spell used and caster level), and the target is covered with what is essentially an illusion of the creature. So using Polymorph to turn someone into a "hydra" would make them look like a Hydra, but instead of having ten attacks, they might have one additional natural attack and three additional points of natural armor (or some such). With this approach, shapeshifting magic can be balanced based on the options available on the list.
3) Limited options. Part of Polymorph's power is that there's so many options to choose from. This attacks that by cutting the number of forms available to a short list (possibly one per version of the spell, ala Trollshape, Dragonshape, and so on; possibly a list such as with Summon Monster). With this approach, shapeshifting magic can be balanced based on the specific creature(s) available.

As for the OP's question:
Metamorphosis is slightly weaker than the standard polymorph in most cases. There's some where it's stronger (boosts to caster level - as Metamorphosis is based on caster level, rather than target hit dice), but for the limited targets cuts down on the available abuse of the effect a small amount.

[The_Snark]

A divergent question....does Greater Metamorphosis's XP cost per manifestation make it more balanced than the flat focus cost of Shapechange?

Somewhat, yeah. At level 17, a 1,000 gp focus is nothing; the experience cost of Greater Metamorphosis isn't large, but it's enough to keep most players from resorting to it unless they need to. Of course, there's always the possibility of losing the focus (if you're imprisoned, you won't be changing into a dragon to break out), which isn't an issue with XP costs, but psions always have a bit of an edge in prison scenarios, since they don't need materials, free hands, or the ability to speak.

More importantly, though, Greater Metamorphosis has a 1 min/level duration, as opposed to Shapechange's 10 min/level. That's what makes it slightly more balanced. Very slightly.

[Talic]

However, with a feat (Metamorphic Transfer), Metamorphosis can grant Supernatural abilities. The potential for abuse is greatly magnified by this.

The only way I've seen to balance poly spells is to give them a list of abilities... Some are <extra attack>, some are <+4 bonus to stat>, some are <mode of movement>, or <Natural armor>.

You get 1 choice for every few caster levels (say, 3). So if you turn into a 10 headed hydra at level 10, and you're a dual-wield rogue, with 4 attacks. If you chose +2 additional attacks and +4 strength, you are now a 10 headed hydra, with the Strength of the rogue +4, and 6 attacks.

In any case, your choices can't exceed the stat/attack form of the creature you shift into. So you can't make a flying hydra.

[Lycanthromancer]

Whereas polymorphers still have Assume Supernatural Ability. It isn't as flexible, but it's an all-the-time-every-time deal.

Great when you have something like greater invisibility at will, for the cost of a polymorph. Even better if you have, say, an at-will polymorph item.

Helloooooo, psychoactive skin!

[Eldariel]

Well, the solution Wizards seems to have finally found by the end of 3.x was specific polymorphing spells - one lets you take troll form, one lets you take dragon, etc. I think it's a good solution, if not any easy one since you'd have to have one for each form. You could do the same thing with psionics - just take the specific-form spells and convert them, and it should work out okay. You don't even have to worry about augments.

Another psionics-specific idea I just had was a single polymorph/metamorphosis power that gives you specific bonuses or a specific form, but that you can augment to take different forms or get better bonuses. I don't play with psionics enough to be able to come up with specifics, but it's a workable idea, right?

This is somewhat true, but e.g. Bite of the Werebear is still insanely strong. Also, the whole idea of "Polymorph" is lost in this - your familiarity and such matter not if you can only take 1 form/spell. I sorta like what Pathfinder is doing with the line of spells, but I would add a bit more of abilities from the target creatures to maintain the feel of changing into another creature - I'm a huge fan of shifting into creatures and having "an alternate form" (especially for Druids) so I really want for the shift to feel like a shift, but at the same time, a Fighter should still be better as a humanoid (the form he's trained in for the whole of his life) than as a creature.

[The_Snark]

However, with a feat (Metamorphic Transfer), Metamorphosis can grant Supernatural abilities. The potential for abuse is greatly magnified by this.

True, but that's a problem with the feat, rather than the power. (Not that that isn't broken too, but very slightly less so than Polymorph.) As Lycanthromancer mentioned, there's a similar feat from Savage Species that works for any kind of magical shapechanging.

[Eldariel]

True, but that's a problem with the feat, rather than the power. (Not that that isn't broken too, but very slightly less so than Polymorph.) As Lycanthromancer mentioned, there's a similar feat from Savage Species that works for any kind of magical shapechanging.

Metamorphic Transfer works for anything too, it merely requires Manifester Level 5 to acquire. In other words, Practiced Manifester + 1-level dip (or of course, some dual progression).

[Epinephrine]

The Pathfinder folks found an interesting solution with the Beast Shape I-IV spells.