[3.5] Maximising AC, and armour enhancements

[Myou]

Hi all, I'm interested in two things;

1. Making a melee character with the highest AC possible (without cheese), can anyone suggest how I would do that? (Preferably a build viable from low levels up, but a high level build is fine if that's not possible.)

2. Making armour for existing characters that allows a higher dex bonus and has a lower ACP, what are the best ways to do that?

(All WotC material is fine.)

[Talic]

Celestial armor is good for the final question.

The first? Well, cheese will be involved to get into the really good numbers.

Dwarf druid Stoneblessed. Shifts into a shambling mound. Uses X weapon (druid legal) with a least energy crystal (electricity) to full attack himself with touch attacks every round. Every shock for 1 damage instead grants him 1d4 con, that fades at the rate of 1 per hour.

Stoneblessed applies Con to AC and touch AC instead of Dex. One astronomical AC, coming up. Add in Steadfast determination, and you have HP, strong Fort and Will saves, and great touch AC. Cheesy, but good.

Others involve templates. Ghost in particular is good, as it applies Cha as a deflection to AC. Through feats, you can add Charisma modifier to shield bonus as well, and make the shield bonus apply to touch AC as well. Combine with ghost touch armor, good dex, and a few other abilities, and an AC of 60-70 isn't unreasonable, by level 12-15.

With Paladin variants (Paladin of Tyranny or slaughter), you can get smiting charge, and other stuff to make damage viable, as well.

It's feat hungry, but it works.

[Myou]

Celestial armor is good for the final question.

The first? Well, cheese will be involved to get into the really good numbers.

Dwarf druid Stoneblessed. Shifts into a shambling mound. Uses X weapon (druid legal) with a least energy crystal (electricity) to full attack himself with touch attacks every round. Every shock for 1 damage instead grants him 1d4 con, that fades at the rate of 1 per hour.

Stoneblessed applies Con to AC and touch AC instead of Dex. One astronomical AC, coming up. Add in Steadfast determination, and you have HP, strong Fort and Will saves, and great touch AC. Cheesy, but good.

Others involve templates. Ghost in particular is good, as it applies Cha as a deflection to AC. Through feats, you can add Charisma modifier to shield bonus as well, and make the shield bonus apply to touch AC as well. Combine with ghost touch armor, good dex, and a few other abilities, and an AC of 60-70 isn't unreasonable, by level 12-15.

With Paladin variants (Paladin of Tyranny or slaughter), you can get smiting charge, and other stuff to make damage viable, as well.

It's feat hungry, but it works.

Wow, that's a lot of AC. :o
And wonderfully cheezy. XD

Where do I find Stoneblessed, Ghost Touch and the celestial enhancement? :3

[Eldariel]

Celestial Armor is a specific armor from DMG or SRD - my favourite piece of armor, actually. Especially if you can get it further enhanced - simply having the Flight permanencied, making it an armor of Nimbleness and adding Ghost Ward+Heavy Fortifications is great. Ghost Touch enhancement is likewise in DMG and SRD. Ghost Ward is Magic Item Compendium IIRC.

Stoneblessed is from Races of Stone. It actually does nothing by itself, but by emulating Dwarf-race it can qualify you for Deepwarden [RoS], which replaces Dex to AC with Con to AC (of course, it's easier to just be Dwarf). Then take Fist of the Forests [CC] and get Con to AC again and enjoy your 2x Con to AC. Shift into any form with high Con, enhance it with spells or such and it should be easily in the 70s when added to the Natural Armor or whatever form you take for basis. You can also get a Monk-level or Monk's Belt for Wis to AC. Then all manners of stuff like Law Devotion, Psionic powers like Inertial Armor & Force Screen, etc. and you'll be crossing 100 easily.

And yes, Charisma-base works. Basic trick to making huge AC is stacking one stat to it multiple times. Changing shape to something like Pit Fiend or some such with ~20-odd Natural Armor and great stats doesn't hurt either.


You can see Elite Optimization Challenge here - a bunch of builds all going for 10 things over 100 (saves, AC, attack, skill checks) by level 20.

[bosssmiley]

1. AC turtling is fail in D&D. There's simply no (non-exploited) way for AC to keep up with attack power by RAW. Ghost touch and brilliant weapon effects, true strike, incorporeality, touch attacks all make AC irrelevant after about 10th level.
   
2. If you must turtle, then swap out the RAW rules on armour for the Tome Series "Races of War" homebrew rules (link in sig):
   
   • Base armour types you actually care about ("Mmmmm, level-appropriate effects")
   • specific armour materials inly make specific armour types (so less material+effect 'mithril full plate' combo cheese is necessary);
   • Armour Check Penalty/Max Dex is reduced as BAB increase;
   • NA + armour only stack partially.

[Eldariel]

[LIST=1][*]AC turtling is fail in D&D. There's simply no (non-exploited) way for AC to keep up with attack power by RAW. Ghost touch and brilliant weapon effects, true strike, incorporeality, touch attacks all make AC irrelevant after about 10th level.

Uhm, how so? The rules offer a ton of ways to stack two stats to AC and pumping stats is ridic easy (Wis, Con & Cha stacks are all ridiculously easy to acquire by the rules). Hell, something simple:

Saint Monk 1/Druid 17

Wildshape into Anything With High Natural Armor. Cast Owl's Insight, with Extend Spell, keep it online all day. This means he'll have ½ CL to Wisdom in addition to +3 Age, 18 basis, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +4 levels. So 46. Hell, take a race with Wis-boost (say, Lesser Aasimar or if really pimping them out, Anthropomorphic Bat) for 48-52.

That means he gets ~+40 to AC from stats before adding natural armor (easily ~20 from Wildshape/Shapechange before casting spells), Dex (~+10 or so before enhancement), etc. for AC in the 80s without really trying (no armor bonus, shield bonus, deflection bonus or sacred bonus factored in yet). Touch AC is easily 60s too (again, without trying) - GL trying to hit that even with True Strike Touch Attacks.


What you probably meant to say is that it's impossible without magic and class features. But let's face it, what kind of a character has neither?

[Talic]

Deepwarden, that's what I was thinking of, not Stoneblessed.

And AC is a funny thing. You should either optimize it... Or ignore it. One of your posters suggested it's fail.

No, it can be done. But if you're not focusing on it, you want to ignore it.

And if you are, you're losing a lot of offensive potential. Figure a way to keep the enemy from ignoring you.

[Myou]

Celestial Armor is a specific armor from DMG or SRD - my favourite piece of armor, actually. Especially if you can get it further enhanced - simply having the Flight permanencied, making it an armor of Nimbleness and adding Ghost Ward+Heavy Fortifications is great. Ghost Touch enhancement is likewise in DMG and SRD. Ghost Ward is Magic Item Compendium IIRC.

Stoneblessed is from Races of Stone. It actually does nothing by itself, but by emulating Dwarf-race it can qualify you for Deepwarden [RoS], which replaces Dex to AC with Con to AC (of course, it's easier to just be Dwarf). Then take Fist of the Forests [CC] and get Con to AC again and enjoy your 2x Con to AC. Shift into any form with high Con, enhance it with spells or such and it should be easily in the 70s when added to the Natural Armor or whatever form you take for basis. You can also get a Monk-level or Monk's Belt for Wis to AC. Then all manners of stuff like Law Devotion, Psionic powers like Inertial Armor & Force Screen, etc. and you'll be crossing 100 easily.

And yes, Charisma-base works. Basic trick to making huge AC is stacking one stat to it multiple times. Changing shape to something like Pit Fiend or some such with ~20-odd Natural Armor and great stats doesn't hurt either.


You can see Elite Optimization Challenge here - a bunch of builds all going for 10 things over 100 (saves, AC, attack, skill checks) by level 20.

Ahhh, thanks for the sources. :3

...

I am aware that it's easy to get around AC, that doesn't mean that I want to replace half the game rules with homebrew ones. o.O

Besides, I just wanted to know about the methods, I'm not planning on making a high-AC character any time soon.

[Myou]

Deepwarden, that's what I was thinking of, not Stoneblessed.

And AC is a funny thing. You should either optimize it... Or ignore it. One of your posters suggested it's fail.

No, it can be done. But if you're not focusing on it, you want to ignore it.

And if you are, you're losing a lot of offensive potential. Figure a way to keep the enemy from ignoring you.

Like you say, having average AC is pointless, so better to at least learn a few tips in case I ever want a high AC PC/NPC. :3

[Eldariel]

In that case, I'll add the few others I can think of:
-Some builds with Elaborate Parry & Tumble (especially high Dex-ones like Your Generic Dervish) can maintain a high out-of-combat AC by staying in Total Defense all the time, and Fighting Defensively in combat; generally they've got sufficient attack buffs to make it work out.
-Swordsage can get a rather solid AC thanks to being able to add Wis to AC while wearing a Light Armor. Celestial Armor, a bunch of Wis & Dex and yeah... It works great.
-Lots of Persistent Buffs on a Cleric does fine for AC buffing. Monk's Belt is of course great for any High Wis-types.
-Anything with Wildshape/Polymorph/Alter Self (especially if Outsider), etc. Alter Self gets you Dwarf Ancestor [MMIV] or Trogdolyte [MM] depending on your type for massive Natural Armor. Polymorph one-ups that and Wildshape offers a bunch of especially tough Natural Armor-forms (most Plants, really). And of course, Shapechange/Polymorph Any Object (you can even buff Int here) turns you into Pit Fiends or whatever.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rather than going for just a cheesy AC, I'd go for a well-rounded melee tank. Crusader from Tome of Battle is one of the tankiest classes you can find, especially with the feat Stone Power from the same book. Go sword and board, use the Martial Spirit stance, and get temporary HP from Stone Power. The temporary HP help mitigate your damage taken, your Steely Resolve ability delays some of the damage you would take, and you can apply healing every round from your maneuvers and stances. If you get damage reduction it's even better, for example assume you have DR 3/- (adamantine full plate), Steely Resolve 15, and 10 temporary HP from Stone Power, and get hit for 40 damage. It gets reduced to 37 damage from DR, 15 goes into your delayed pool, and you take 22 damage, 10 from temporary HP and only 12 points of actual damage. On your turn you make two attacks using Stone Power, you heal for 4 points from Martial Spirit assuming both hit, and gain another 10 temporary HP. At the end of your turn your 15 delayed damage goes off, it gets reduced to 12 thanks to DR, knocks down your temporary HP, and deals only 2 points of actual damage to you. An attack for 40 damage got reduced to 14, four of which you already healed.

Starting at the low levels you could make a Warforged with the Adamantine Body feat for DR 2/Adamantine, and get the feat Thick-Skinned from Savage Species to increase it to 4/Adamantine. You could instead use the Mineral Warrior template to gain DR 8/Adamantine, +3 natural armor, increased Strength and Constitution, and a burrow speed for only a +1 LA, which could be bought off at your third class level. Consider the following builds:

Warforged, Crusader 3/ Fighter 1/ Crusader 3/ Fighter 1/ Crusader 12, Adamantine Body (1), Stone Power (flaw), Thick-Skinned (flaw), Shield Specialization (3), Heavy Armor Optimization (4), Improved Fortification (6), Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (8), Extra Smiting (9), Shield Ward (12), Greater Resiliency (15), and I honestly have no idea what to spend the last feat on, maybe another Extra Smiting or maybe get Defensive Sweep to use with Thicket of Blades. This character is immune to critical hits, you get an extra +2 AC for your armored body (which can also be enchanted) and an extra +1 from your shield which applies to touch attacks, you get DR 5/Adamantine, and you stay a viable melee threat thanks to your maneuvers.

This one has a little bit of cheese:
Water Orc, Dragonborn of Bahamut (wings), Mineral Warrior, in that order. Both templates are acquired so they could be gained in whichever order you choose. Total ability score adjustments would be Str +6, Dex -2, Con +8, Int -4, Wis -4, Cha -4. You would have a 30 ft. land speed, 30 ft. swim speed, 15 ft. burrow speed, and a 30 ft. fly speed with average maneuverability as long as you gain Mineral Warrior before level 6. You would still have the DR 8/Adamantine and all the rest of the Mineral Warrior's abilities, since Dragonborn only takes away what racial qualities you already have when it's taken. You could instead use Water Halfling for Str +0, Dex +0, Con +8, and -2 Int, Wis, and Cha, but your land and swim speed would be 20 ft. and your burrow speed would be 10 ft.
Crusader 1/ Fighter 2/ Crusader 17, Stone Power (1), Reinforced Wings (flaw), Extra Granted Maneuver (flaw), Shield Specialization (2), Shield Ward (3), Heavyweight Wings (3), Improved Flight (6), Extra Smiting (9), Heavy Armor Optimization (12), Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (15), and anything at 18. You could switch out Heavyweight Wings and the Heavy Armor Optimizations and instead wear breastplate or mithral full plate, and maybe get thick-skinned, combat reflexes, and defensive sweep instead, or perhaps some Combat Form feats from PH2. This makes a superb melee tank who can also deal quite a bit of damage, plus you get every mode of movement but climb.

Either of those builds could also get Leadership for a Cleric cohort who buffs you with Magic Vestment x2, Shield of Faith, Barkskin (Plant domain), etc. Ideally you should get an Illumian Cleric with the Vaul sigil, a Circlet of Persuasion, 5+ ranks in Knowledge: Religion, a high Cha score, at least one Night Stick, and the feat Divine Spell Power, hopefully with a Strand of Prayer Beads (cheaper with the Bead of Smiting removed). Either get the Healing and Sun domains, with the PH2 variant for Healing, and go into Radiant Servant of Pelor for the Glory domain and then Contemplative, or get the Plant and Glory domains, visit the Frog God's Fane (CS) to get Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) to go Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative, and gain the Destiny and Travel domains.

Edit: A Gnome Mineral Warrior would be another (less cheesy) good choice, take Dodge and Titan Fighting and you'll get a +4 AC against your Dodge target if they're bigger than you, plus the attack and AC bonuses for being small sized.

[Myou]

Thanks for the suggestions. :3

I can feel my knowledge growing! *Maniacal laughter.*

[Glimbur]

... At the end of your turn your 15 delayed damage goes off, it gets reduced to 12 thanks to DR, knocks down your temporary HP...

Does the delayed damage pool actually work like that?

[wadledo]

No, it doesn't.
The damage is still taken on the first turn, it just takes a turn to effect you.

[Zanticor]

If the point of a high AC is to get hit less, you might consider displacement or blink a kind of AC booster. To my mind that ring of blinking and the cloak of displacement are the two of the best AC boosters out there. Or you can just begyour wizard to make a wand of one of the two so you can always benefit from AC on a stick.

Zanticor

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At the end of your turn, you take damage equal to the total stored in your delayed damage pool, which then resets to 0.

It is a separate instance of damage taken from the original hit, therefore it would be subject to DR just like any other source of damage. Depending on what types of damage you've been dealt, you may not be able to apply DR.

If you have Steely Resolve 5 and get hit for 5 damage, you take none immediately and 5 (minus DR) at the end of your next turn. If you have Steely Resolve 5 and get hit for 8, you take three immediately (minus DR), and at the end of your next turn you take 5 (minus DR). If you get hit by a Fireball, your DR won't apply to the initial or delayed damage because energy damage always bypasses DR.

[wadledo]

It is a separate instance of damage taken from the original hit, therefore it would be subject to DR just like any other source of damage. Depending on what types of damage you've been dealt, you may not be able to apply DR.

If you have Steely Resolve 5 and get hit for 5 damage, you take none immediately and 5 (minus DR) at the end of your next turn. If you have Steely Resolve 5 and get hit for 8, you take three immediately (minus DR), and at the end of your next turn you take 5 (minus DR). If you get hit by a Fireball, your DR won't apply to the initial or delayed damage because energy damage always bypasses DR.

No, it's the same damage, just taken a turn later.
There is no indication that you use damage reduction on the damage pool, just like here is no indication that if you take damage while you have concealment, there is only a % chance you take the damage a turn later from the damage pool.

[Zaq]

What you probably meant to say is that it's impossible without magic and class features. But let's face it, what kind of a character has neither?

A Fighter. *rimshot*

Anyway, yeah, getting stats to AC is probably good, because that generally increases your touch AC as well as your normal AC, and all too often touch AC is what matters.

I'm rather fond of some of the psionic options, like Deflective Armor (Races of Stone). It's outstripped at the higher levels, to be sure, but increasing your touch AC by 10 (because you're wearing Mechanus Gear from Planar Handbook, right? Right?) early on is nothing to scoff at.