Creative fighting class...

[Shinizak]

I'm really tired of the whole "I go in and smash things" approach. I want a melee class that encourages thinking outside the box in a fight (and not just "I flank for sneak attack"). Do you know of such a class? (or mix of classes)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

A White Raven Warblade or Crusader can do some of this, given it's reliance on timing and teamwork actions, as can a Shadow Hand or Setting Sun Swordmage. Aside from that...not really. Sorry, but I can't think of anything. D&D 3.5 is largely a "I smash it" sort of game.

[Eldariel]

Any Tome of Battle-class falls under this, but especially Swordsage/Master of the Nine (dip one level in Crusader & Warblade too for a bunch of extra maneuvers) with Adaptive Style - you have a fckton of maneuvers, and you can access all of them with one full-round action. Pick Martial Study & Martial Stance once or twice and wear Maneuver-granting items and go to town. You can literally always adapt your fighting style to whatever the situation requires and be an entirely different character every day. This just gets better and better for the versatility if you add some homebrew disciplines (most importantly some Archery discipline) to learn.

Of course, any caster automatically falls under this. I mean, this is precisely the problem people find in the Core melee. Oh, and Factotum 11/Chameleon 9. Be a new character every day. Doesn't have all that much actual melee versatility though, but has a ton of versatility overall. Oh yeah, and Psychic Warrior in general.

[Teron]

How about a swordsage? It's the most versatile of the martial adepts, and offers nice tricks like using Setting Sun throws to toss enemies from high places or into area of effect spells.

P.S. I know I've been ninja'ed by now, but I'll be damned if I give up on getting this post through.

[Chronos]

While the Tome of Battle classes certainly make this easier, you can get non-smash fighting styles without them, too. Saph's Horizon Tripper build doesn't even need anything non-Core.

[Quietus]

I'm actually a fan of several levels of straight Fighter for this, possibly with a level of Monk. Get an Int of 13, don't worry about Wis, you'll be wearing armor generally.

The one level of Monk is for the free Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Grapple feats, and so that if you're caught with your pants down (so to speak), you can use a flurry of strikes to apply the combat tricks you'll pick up through Fighter levels.

Your Fighter levels, pick up Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike/Grapple (If you want to skip Monk), and possibly Improved Bull Rush/Overrun/Sunder.

The general idea? Get your Strength as high as you can, and preferrably have someone nearby who can cast Enlarge Person on you as needed. Maybe keep a couple CL1 or CL2 potions of it around. Against different targets, you can apply different tricks; If you're fighting something small but annoying, grapple it. If you're fighting an opposing melee guy, disarm. If it's a melee grunt whose weapon isn't magical, but you need to take down nonlethally, disarm then sunder. Or just sunder. Trip as needed for control. Unarmored, if you take that level of Monk, you have the option to Flurry of Blows with trips/disarms (don't try to disarm a 2handed weapon unarmed, though), and if you disarm them in this way, you end up with the weapon in your hands. And if push comes to shove.. power attack.

Other feats that help with this is picking up EWP : Spiked Chain, as it has Reach, can be used to trip with, and gets a bonus to disarms. If you don't want to spend that feat, then the heavy flail is your next best bet, with a 19-20 crit range, d10 damage, and trip/disarm benefits.

Note that all of this is Core-only. If outside material is brought in, and you have the Wisdom for it, the Combat Focus feats from PHB2 can be helpful. One of them gives you a ... +4, I think, bonus to resisting trips/disarms/grapples/etc, and if you have three Combat Focus feats (One to access the line, one to resist special attacks, you only need one more after this), then you double that bonus. Yes, that only applies for the first (10+# of Combat Focus feats you have) rounds after you make a successful attack, but the difference SHOULD be noticeable. And I'm sure there are other sources out there that would provide even better options.

[Learnedguy]

I'd actually go with the normal fighter. You're big and tough, and hopefully you've spent skill points on physical skills like climbing. You're body is your tool, your mind is the artificer (sorry about the cheesy metaphor)! There has to be something you can do!

[Bluebeard]

Tome of Battle is the easiest route. If it's available, go for it.
Short of that, spellcasters and psionics add many more options to melee.
Duskblades, Psychic Warriors, Druids, Clerics, Egoists and Psion or Wizard multiclasses aren't just popular because they're more powerful than normal melee classes. They're popular because they're often more fun -- they have more to do in any given fight than run up and attack.

Self-contained casting Prestige classes like Pious Templar, Suel Arcanamach, Warmind or Assassin would be a second choice.

Almost any Tactical Feat is worth your time. The ones I find the most useful and interesting:
Elusive Target, Combat Brute and Shock Trooper from Complete Warrior
Underfoot Fighting and Wolf Pack Tactics from Races of the Wild
Combat Panache from Player's Handbook 2.
Any from Tome of Battle. Even the ones that suck are alright.

Add a few Improved [Combat Maneuver] abilities. Without them, the tactics usually just flat-out don't work.
Knockback from Races of Stone adds another distinct option.

A Cleric level (or 20) can greatly open your versatility with Devotion feats from Complete Champion.

[streakster]

Ooooooooh, by my atl-atl
This, sir, calls for Tome of Battle
As very little's called for it before!
Be a Swordsage or Warblade or
Even a Crusader!
You, sir, need do nothing more!

Goblins swarming? Try Black Pearl,
Then give Tornado Throw a whirl,
Or simply Shadow Jaunt your way on past.
Single target? Tombstone Strike,
Time Stands Still or the like,
And Inferno Blade is of course a blast.

Your tactics'll change with situation
And, to your celebration,
You'll always have a wealth of things to do!
For creative melee, just five words:
- "The Book of Nine Swords" -
There's a maneuver there, waiting just for youuuu!

[Crow]

Why not just play a standard melee class and "think outside the box"? Really, by just grabbing a class with more options you're still thinking inside the box, just with a bigger box.

I've found, the less options I have, the more I am encouraged to think outside the box. The more options I have built into my class, the more I seem to only look to those options.

Maybe what you are looking for is a class that offers more abilities that you can use as options? In which case the previous suggestions are good.

[Lycanthromancer]

Tome of Battle is good for this.

I like psychic warriors, though. (Warning; must have a forum account to read properly...)

[valadil]

I know how you feel. I don't like fighters because the choice between full attack/charge, who to flank, and how much to power attack just isn't enough to make the class interesting. Back before ToB and Bo9S I set out to make a fun fighter. He ended up being a wizard/fighter/human paragon/eldritch knight gish with a spiked chain. Plenty of options with that guy and a ton of fun to play. Not sure if it's what you're looking for though.

[Talic]

My ideal "outside the box" class combo is one of the two below:

Bloodstorm Blade - Good melee and range abilities, and with certain feats, you can disarm, trip, etc at range. You also can keep melee functionality.

Gish variant of the above. Duskblade 13/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/XX 2

This lets you imbue a Vampiric Touch into your weapon, full attack whatever you like, and get the benefit of the spell on all of them.

For XX, if you want better end game power, you can build thusly:

Wizard 1/Duskblade 13/Warblade 1/BSB 4/Warblade 2

Take precocious apprentice for Wraithstrike and practiced spellcaster, and you get a full attack, touch attack, once a day, with a spell added in.

Not the best combo in existence, but it's fun.

[AslanCross]

Multiclass Swordsage and Psychic Warrior. Those alone should open up a LOT of options for you. Take the Combat Form feat line (PHB2), since those rely on high Wis.

Focusing on Diamond Mind could lead to some really interesting things---poke someone to death with an Insightful Strike using a toothpick.

Keeping some stances like Island of Blades would help your party rogue, while Pearl of Black Doubt is IMO the best defensive stance ever.

[Farlion]

My outside of the box figher is actually a rogue.

I took the following feats:
Combat expertise, Imp. disarm, feint, imp. trip, Einhander (Comp. Fighter), Dodge, weapon finesse

Well, now the fluff part: I'm a duellist. I duell people using just my rapier and my leather armor. I'm a man of honour, I don't sneak attack people while flanking, but if I can trick them into lowering their defenses (using feint), I deliver a precise blow (sneak attack renamed to fit my code of conduct). If I want to humiliate my opponent, I can trip him, disarm him, but I never strike an tripped or unarmed opponent (I let them get their weapon back, let them get up etc.).

So, actually, my out of the box fighting comes from the fluff side, not the crunch side.

Think about it.

Cheers,
Farlion

[Lycanthromancer]

If you want something different, try a The Big Guy Is With Me build.

Nab an egoist, grab Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Body, and as many Improved Psicrystal feats as you need to get your psicrystal the Channel Powers ability. Oh, and metamorphosis.

Now, buff the hell out of it and send it off to kill. Start using psychic reformation to sub out feats whenever you gain levels to give your manifesting some extra Oomph.

See psicrystal.
Kill, psicrystal! Kill!
Goooood psicrystal...

[Justin B.]

I tend to agree with the idea that "thinking outside the box" is independant of character options.

A great way to do this is to get an adamantine weapon and start sundering things. Cover, equipment, doors, you get the idea. Imagine the boost you'll get to an intimidate check if you put your greatsword through the mayor's desk!

Use that high strength score to your advantage, you can pick up and toss things (including enemies if you have the grappling abilities) quite easily. Use your imagination.

Random magic items have all kinds of fun uses that are unconventional. For instance, consider how difficult it might be for an enemy caster to make a concentration check when you are blasting a Decanter of Endless Water into his face.

[Talic]

Thinking outside the box is partially independant of character options. Thinking outside the box is basically using what you have in unusual and creative ways.

While having more options doesn't make you think outside the box any more... It gives you more versatility when you do. Because you have more things to think outside the box with.

[Lycanthromancer]

I tend to agree with the idea that "thinking outside the box" is independant of character options.

A great way to do this is to get an adamantine weapon and start sundering things. Cover, equipment, doors, you get the idea. Imagine the boost you'll get to an intimidate check if you put your greatsword through the mayor's desk!

Use that high strength score to your advantage, you can pick up and toss things (including enemies if you have the grappling abilities) quite easily. Use your imagination.

A.) Sundering Is A Trap. Only use it when you encounter something that nobody in the group can use or sell. Since you're only technically allowed to sunder handheld and unattended items, the number of reasonable-to-sunder items is vanishingly small.

B.) Unless you have levels in drunken master or the Throw Anything (or REALLY Throw Anything) feat, you take penalties when using improvised items. Taking penalties for being 'creative' with your surroundings is crap, which is why it's generally better to be unorthodox with preexisting abilities (this means that most fighter-types are screwed even more).

C.) Most 'creative' things you can do mechanically and within the rules really can't be done to most enemies with a martial-type, given that most are far too large for you to do anything but "I move/attack/full-attack." The majority of critters in the game don't have items that can be sundered or disarmed (not that you'd want to ever sunder your soon-to-be-loot anyway), and/or are way too large to trip/bull-rush/grapple and throw/etc. Unless you have ways to overcome things like size restrictions and deadly AoOs, this makes playing a mundane martial type in interesting ways difficult, at the least.

D.) Go caster/manifester-gish or ToB. It's about the only way you legitimately have to creatively destroy your enemies. Use expansion to increase your options for things like grab-and-throw tactics; time hop to drop a chandelier on someone's head, to drop the bridge out from under enemies, or to make that charging paladin's mount suddenly vanish out from under him; use a tanglefoot bag and Psionic Shot to inconvenience foes while still doing damage.

Unless you have the tools to be creative with, your options will be sadly limited. Unfortunately, most martial types don't have anything but BAB, a pool of hp, and a Strength score. Which, ultimately, makes them quite boring.

[Farlion]

Unless you have the tools to be creative with, your options will be sadly limited.

Yeah, the tool is called fantasy and creativity. It doesn't have to be feats, spells or skills.

Unfortunately, most martial types don't have anything but BAB, a pool of hp, and a Strength score. Which, ultimately, makes them quite boring.

I disagree. Totally. Fighter based classes are only limited if you forget about the fluff part. But then any class is boring, since it's only a bunch of numbers scribbled on a sheet of paper.

Cheers,
Farlion

P.S: While were at it, I just remembereda really funny character idea some friends and I once had.

Kawumbadix Kuschelbart (the second name translates into: Snugglebeard) the Duergar reaping mauler. Kawumbadix preferrs to fight with nothing but a loincloth, since this is the only legit way to really stand your man (or dwarf). Kawumbadix is known for his excellence in grappling, and even larger adversaries have been pinned by him. Now if Kawumbadix goes on adventures, he never goes without his ointment of contact poison, which he rubs on his whole body every morning. Trust me fellows, grappling with Kawumbadix is a really bad idea!

[Justin B.]

A.) Sundering Is A Trap. Only use it when you encounter something that nobody in the group can use or sell. Since you're only technically allowed to sunder handheld and unattended items, the number of reasonable-to-sunder items is vanishingly small.

I understand from lurking that the basis of discussion in this forum is the idea that the Straw DM is highly frowned upon. However, let us assume that the majority of DM's out there are not mouth breathing rules lawyers, eh? I'm not speaking of sundering weapons, or even armor, I'm speaking of using it on terrain, items about the room, things like that. There is a great amount of control to be had being inventive in this way. Or are you going to argue to me that most fights take place in completely open and featureless fields and rooms? If that were the case I would argue that you have a poor DM.

B.) Unless you have levels in drunken master or the Throw Anything (or REALLY Throw Anything) feat, you take penalties when using improvised items. Taking penalties for being 'creative' with your surroundings is crap, which is why it's generally better to be unorthodox with preexisting abilities (this means that most fighter-types are screwed even more).

Again, let us assume that not all DM's are slaves to the written text. I believe someone with twenty strength could easily pick up a piece of furniture, and toss it at an enemy, perhaps even one handedly. It may take penalties, but one could theorhetically argue that if something is large enough, it is harder to dodge. You may be able to negate the penalties in this fashion. Part of the fun of coming up with creative ideas is being able to defend them. People don't realize the very superhuman strength that some of these martial characters can obtain.

C.) Most 'creative' things you can do mechanically and within the rules really can't be done to most enemies with a martial-type, given that most are far too large for you to do anything but "I move/attack/full-attack." The majority of critters in the game don't have items that can be sundered or disarmed (not that you'd want to ever sunder your soon-to-be-loot anyway), and/or are way too large to trip/bull-rush/grapple and throw/etc. Unless you have ways to overcome things like size restrictions and deadly AoOs, this makes playing a mundane martial type in interesting ways difficult, at the least..

I don't disagree on any particular point in this statement here, except for the idea that bigger=harder. In some ways this is true, but if silly videogames have taught us anything, it is that big things have alot of space to crawl around on. A fighter probably has a large investment in Climb. Look at a creatures anatomy, you may be able to find a place where he simply can't reach you. There's a strong fantasy precendent for this as well.

[Eldariel]

I don't disagree on any particular point in this statement here, except for the idea that bigger=harder. In some ways this is true, but if silly videogames have taught us anything, it is that big things have alot of space to crawl around on. A fighter probably has a large investment in Climb. Look at a creatures anatomy, you may be able to find a place where he simply can't reach you. There's a strong fantasy precendent for this as well.

I'm not sure why I'd intentionally choose a class with less skill points, less attack options and less different defenses though; I think ToB classes just do all this better. 4+Int skillpoints mean you can have your Jump & Climb to go with your Bluff, Diplomacy, Tumble, etc.

And having a variety of strikes mean you can move each turn without hurting your combat strength making these varied things you do all that much more effective. As an example, I've fought a Juvenile Dragon with a Dervish before the point where I acquired permanent flight.

Now, with some use of Bag of Tricks and readied actions, I managed to time a leap+slash (off the top of the Lion from the Bag of Tricks) on the Dragon so I actually got a hit on it. The problem though: The hit did nothing. I'd need ~15 more of those to kill the damn thing and it sure as hell wasn't gonna come close enough to allow for some such again (and since I had no ranks in Climb, the whole "climb the Dragon"-thing just wasn't gonna happen).

Now, had I been a Warblade, I could've lain some serious hurt with that one hit, using some strike and power attacking a bit, meaning I could've actually done something with my "moment of awesome". As things went, it was "cool" and we still remember it, but frankly, it didn't help much. Mostly I just peppered the Dragon with arrows (ineffectually) for the combat while our Ultimate Magus killed it.

So yeah, I'm all for creativity, but I don't see any reason to pick a class with less starting points from which to expand. A Fighter can do a few things and much more with creativity, but a Warblade can do all the same and then some.

[Telonius]

Bard1/Ranger2/Fighter2/MasterofMasks1

Take Gladiator as one of your two Masks. Congratulations! You now have proficiency in all exotic weapons.

Ranger levels are there to give you enough skill points to pull this off at low levels. Bard instead of Rogue to give you Speak Language as a class skill. at first. Feel free to switch these around if you don't mind waiting a little longer for the all-exotic proficiency. You'll lose 2 BAB from a full-BAB class, but it's not that bad of a sacrifice.

[Justin B.]

[QUOTE=Eldariel;6071709]Stuff...[QUOTE]

I don't disagree with you on this either, certainly more options does mean the ability to be more creative. However, my point was that the two aren't necessarily tied together, and you can do creative things without three pages worth of WOTC material.

As for your dragon scenario, I'm not sure what to tell you, except that every little bit helps, and since the experience was memorable and fun for you, that is what I would consider to be the important part. "Who does more damage" can be fun, but what they're going to remember is your awesome leap to smack the thing, even if it wasn't all that damaging.