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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Pyromancer does what?

    Ok, I'd like to make a pyro, but different games have different restrictions on what sources are allowed, and most guides don't even bother recognizing blasting as a useful strategy, especially for casters. While this may be true, sometimes I just want to make something burn. The question is, what is the best way to go about it? Warmage? Sorcerer with fire sphere? FS Conjurer or Evoker? Warlock?

    Restrictions:
    1.Must work on RAW, or RAI must be clearly visible and easily argued.
    2.Must kill things with fire. Stuns and such are ok, but the build should not be using Enervation to the point where pulling out a fire spell sounds useless. If another character could reasonably ask "why do you call yourself a pyromancer, when you don't fight with fire?" the build doesn't work.
    3.Power level must be in line with at least a tier 3 character. I want to be a useful pyro, not a bic lighter.
    4.While cold will be anathema to the build, other energy types are not, as long as I'm always using fire on the enemy(energy substitution and admixture). This means that acid+fire is ok, but acid alone isn't.
    5.Must not be setting specific
    6.Mentioning dragon mag concepts are fine, but please don't build around them. DMs don't always allow.
    7.Must be alignment free. If the only way to play the build is to be the Kobold worshiper of St. Cuthbert's toenail, it isn't going to work.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    The problems with pyromancy are 3fold. First, you've got the fact that most enemies have enough health to make it tough to take them out with HP damage. Second, because you're probably going to be dealing with a resource that's limited in uses/day, you're probably going to be doing thesame thing as the Rogue/Fighter, but better. That's no fun. Third, enemies are generally resistant to fire.

    That said, you've got a few options.
    Incheesetrix:
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    Pick up Orb of Electricity, Searing Spell, Energy Sub/Admixture, Arcane Thesis, Split Ray, and every damage-boosting metamagic you can. Take any meta reducer you can find. Go to town. Both cheesy and overpowered, and a lot of work to build right. Eh.
    Pyrokineticist(psionics does everything better):
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    Go either Psion or Wilder, boost your ML wherever possible, snag the Pyrokineticist class, a couple good metapsionic feats, and be a decent blaster with other options and little work. Probably your best bet.
    Flaming Eldrich Glaive-lock of Unholy DOOM:
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    Binder 1/Warlock 8/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion(or similar) X. You snag Eldrich Glaive(yes, Dragon, but it's pretty normal, and not vital, Chain works), Bind Naberious(to heal ability damage 1 round later), Empower/Quicken SLA, and use classes that boost 'all level-based class features' to increase Hellfire damage(again, cheesy and not completely necessary). You now deal 1d6 per ever 2 levels of Warlock, plus another 2d6 for each Hellfire Warlock level. With Glaive, you make iterative touch attacks instead of a single standard action attack, though only in melee range. Cheesy, but AWESOME.
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    FAQ is not RAW!
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    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    I had a friend build a surprisingly effective Dragonborn Sorcerer/Elemental Savant. The Savant levels helped somewhat, but the real killer was the combination of Arcane Thesis (Fireball), Energy Admixture, Versatile Spellcaster, Practical Metamagic, etc., to make a "super-fireball" which did 20d6 of fire damage using two 3rd level spell slots. Half the campaign devolved to "doors open, everything burns." Heck, he even threw on Searing Spell to bypass fire immunity and resistance, and thanks to Arcane Thesis it cost nothing! Disgusting. If you face lots of high SR creatures, through the Thesis on Orb of Fire and flavor to taste.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Be a wizard specialized in Divination, re-fluff all spells as communing with fire/gazing into a fire to find out stuff.

    Hilarfious literalism aside, I would suggest a Psion (kineticist). I would, however, strongly recommend against using the actual Pyrokineticist PrC, as it's quite bad.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    Gah, psionics. The flavor always bothered me there. Not sure why, but oh well.

    Also, the capstone seems....underpowered. DC 15 + Cha for a level 15 character? Casters get that at 9th level....
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Wizard Focused Specialist Evocation.
    Drop: Illusion, Enchantment, Necromancy

    Conjuration still has amazing control spells and most importantly teleportation and summoning.
    Transmutation has some great buffs for low levels (you didn't say what level this is for) and most importantly timestop.

    Arcane Thesis on fireball or delayed blast fireball is a great way to go. Make sure to put on some fell animate on there so you can bring some minions along too. There are some good touch spells searing ray comes to mind, make sure you play towards the enemies weaknesses (so have choice spells for each save/touch ac) and not just to how much damage you can do if they make there save.

    And keep a few walls/buffs available. Best thing evocation has is the walls.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    5 levels of psychic warrior + Pyrokineticist can lead to some insane damage if you take the right powers when you're a psychic warrior. Those powers include things like Dissolving Touch (+4d6 acid damage when making unarmed attacks) and Expansion (enlarge person for psions). Pick up unarmed strike for a feat, add on psionic fist (another 2d6 damage when you're focused), and then when you pick up hands afire... yeah. You play your cards right, you're doing 8d6 damage by punching someone in the face.

    Then you take weapon focus (whip) and stand back 15 feet from your enemies and trip them with a whip of fire. Good times.

    EDIT: Or go with a wizard/master specialist evoker and concentrate on fire spells whose DCs will make your DM cry.
    Last edited by Rhiannon87; 2009-05-05 at 08:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    hmm Mabye as an alternative to what others are saying try:

    half giant
    scout 5/Pyrokineticist 10/Swordsage5
    Not in any perticular order


    That way you are shooting 10d6 flame bolts with pyrokineticist. you get some menuvers from swordsage, (desert wind any one)

    You could totally pimp out the fire dmg.

    I'm sure theres some other ones as well but with that build above
    At level 10
    you shooting(if you move 10ft, 20 ft if you take improve skirmish)
    5d6 + 2d6(4d6 with imrpved scirmish) damage a round
    thats not bad. I meen it's no uber charger or other brokenness but chucking
    9d6 in a round isn't that bad.

    Never mind it also adds some versitility with weapon afire and fire lash and what not.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worira View Post
    Be a wizard specialized in Divination, re-fluff all spells as communing with fire/gazing into a fire to find out stuff.

    Hilarfious literalism aside, I would suggest a Psion (kineticist). I would, however, strongly recommend against using the actual Pyrokineticist PrC, as it's quite bad.
    Oh, you. Not everyone knows that -mancy means divination.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Gah, psionics. The flavor always bothered me there. Not sure why, but oh well.

    Also, the capstone seems....underpowered. DC 15 + Cha for a level 15 character? Casters get that at 9th level....
    *shrug* Use powers. They work much better anyways, thanks to augmenting system. The class features are just bonus. But yeah, Psionics does it better. The flavour...well, reflavour them if you must, but really, I don't see what's wrong with "mind magic" or "inner magic" (whereas arcane manipulates energy fields available and divine channels planar/natural [energy of the living] energies).

    At first, Psionics felt weird to me, but now after using it for a while, I couldn't imagine playing D&D without them. It's mostly just that Psionics changes everything for the better. And the flavour problem is something you'll get over if you actually bother to learn the rules and use 'em - at least that's how it worked out for me and I can't see why you'd have any stronger reservations. Oh yeah, and Mind Flayers are 1000000 times cooler as Psions than Sorcerers.

    EDIT: Oh, he linked Pyrokineticist. Meh class; I prefer true manifesting myself. Kineticist can easily do a lot of burning and blowing things up. It's worth noting though that Pyrokineticist doesn't have daily limits on many of the abilities so you'd be doing that forever.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-05-05 at 08:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    If I may offer a humble suggestion...Swordsage.

    Yes, Swordsage. Now, open up your Tome of Battle and take a look at the variants. Normally the Arcane Swordsage variant is overpowered due to the amazing number of powerful Save-or-Sucks, personal buffs, or general utility spells you can shell out. If, however, you only stock up on fire-based, mostly damaging spells, I think you can convince your DM to allow it. Then just mix and match spells and (if allowed) maneuvers from Desert Wind to taste. In place of Stances, either pick Personal spells, extra spells, or Desert Wind Stances, depending on your DM's ruling.

    Then, if he'll let you, PrC out into the Elemental Savant class, keeping your maneuver/spell progression as your Caster progression.

    Some spells to consider (fire-based or easily re-flavored--all found on Crystalkeep.com, which gives sources and occasionally rules summaries):

    0--Flare, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation, Light
    1--Endure Elements, Lesser Orb of Fire, Obscuring Mist (Smoke), Burning Hands, Raging Burn (Dragon Magazine), Slow Burn (Dragon Magazine)
    2--Blades of Fire, Fog Cloud, Resist Energy, Aganazzar's Scorcher, Combust, Continual Flame, Fireburst, Flame Dagger, Flaming Sphere, Furnace Within, Scorching Ray, Pyrotechnics, Body of the Sun, Heat Metal
    3--Protection from Energy, Daylight, Fireball, Flashburst, Flame Arrow, Gaseous Form
    4--Fire Trap, Blast of Flame, Radiant Fog, Dimension Door (Vanish in flame), Orb of Fire, Blistering Radiance, Explosive Cascade, Fire Shield, Wall of Fire, Burning Blood, Fire Stride
    5--Cloudkill, Dragon Breath, Firebrand, Greater Fireburst, Shroud of Flame, Transmute Rock to Mud (Melting)
    6--Fire Spiders, Fires of Purity, Disintegrate (Charred to dust)
    7--Energy Immunity, Delayed Blast Fireball, Emerald Flame Fist
    8--Incendiary Cloud, Sunburst, Blackfire, Horrid Wilting (evaporating water)
    9--Meteor Swarm, Transmute Rock to Lava

    Ingredients

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    Instructions

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    If I may offer a humble suggestion...Swordsage.

    Yes, Swordsage. Now, open up your Tome of Battle and take a look at the variants. Normally the Arcane Swordsage variant is overpowered due to the amazing number of powerful Save-or-Sucks, personal buffs, or general utility spells you can shell out. If, however, you only stock up on fire-based, mostly damaging spells, I think you can convince your DM to allow it. Then just mix and match spells and (if allowed) maneuvers from Desert Wind to taste. In place of Stances, either pick Personal spells, extra spells, or Desert Wind Stances, depending on your DM's ruling.

    -snipped-
    No. The arcane variant is a textbook example of what not to do. Just go standard Swordsage focusing on Desert Wind, or maybe go Duskblade 7/SS 1/JPM 10/X 2. No need to pull out the idiocy of that variant just for flaming fire.
    [/sarcasm]
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    No. The arcane variant is a textbook example of what not to do. Just go standard Swordsage focusing on Desert Wind, or maybe go Duskblade 7/SS 1/JPM 10/X 2. No need to pull out the idiocy of that variant just for flaming fire.
    Well, we'll have to respectively disagree...I personally think it could work quite well in this particular case, if carefully built. Also, I find the variant rather poorly thought out for standard play, but not idiotic. It just requires a player who is willing to not overpower it (which, I'll admit, is very, VERY easy).

    Ingredients

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    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    Well, we'll have to respectively disagree...I personally think it could work quite well in this particular case, if carefully built. Also, I find the variant rather poorly thought out for standard play, but not idiotic. It just requires a player who is willing to not overpower it (which, I'll admit, is very, VERY easy).
    Full casting from 3 schools, d6 HD, 6+Int skills, and the ability to recover a spell with a Standard action. Why would you play anything else? Variants should alter flavor or mior portions of the mechanics(sonokineticist), not replace one power system with another. It's broken just using it with Fireball or Scorching Ray, let alone any non-damage spells.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Try going (Cloistered) Cleric with the Fire and Magic domains, take the PH2 variant to spontaneously cast spells from the Fire domain, and get wands and scrolls of choice wizard spells that you otherwise can't cast. Get Divine Metamagic for maybe Maximize or Twin Spell, some metamagic rods, etc. Be sure to get a Rod of Empower and do the Fire Seeds trick, that should be able to blow up anything not immune to fire in just one shot.

    Another option could be to use Archivist, but you'd have to take Sacred Exorcist to get Divine Metamagic.


    A Psion (Kineticist) is one of the best blasters in the game. If you're able to use psionics, that should be among your top choices.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    Full casting from 3 schools
    He didn't suggest that. He suggested selective casting, not full.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    and the ability to recover a spell with a Standard action.
    Standard? Text reads as a full-round action, unless there's a feat that makes it easier.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Actually, the Hellfire Warlock idea is probably the most sound, as you eventually get to bypass Fire immunities (IIRC), making your fire work on everything you come across.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    He didn't suggest that. He suggested selective casting, not full.

    Standard? Text reads as a full-round action, unless there's a feat that makes it easier.

    It is indeed a full-round action, although a single feat allows for full recovery during that round. With the caster variation, I'd disallow that feat, or make it only apply to your maneuvers.

    Ingredients

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    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Dragonfire Adept + Entangling Exhalation (there are ways to qualify by RAW)= decent fire (if you want fire) using character.

    The secondary abilities are useful as well.

    You get fire breath (magic) and other goodies.

    Dragon Magic is book you want for this build.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Dragonfire Adept + Entangling Exhalation (there are ways to qualify by RAW)= decent fire (if you want fire) using character.
    You don't need "ways to qualify", Dragonfire Adepts qualify for Entangling Exhalation right out of the box. You do need to jump through some hoops to qualify for metabreath feats, but Entangling Exhalation isn't a metabreath feat.

    Another good idea, if you're going with a caster, is to take the Fiery Burst reserve feat from Complete Mage. Because really, what's the point of setting everything on fire if you can't do it every single round all day?

    And a bit feat-intensive, but if you get Shape Soulmeld: Phoenix Belt, Open Greater Chakra: Waist, and Bonus Essentia (all from Magic of Incarnum), you can not only resist fire, but heal yourself using it.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    If you really want to use fire without being gimped by immunities, might I suggest the Silver Flame Pyromancer from Five Nations (Eberron book). You could easily refluff it for the flavor and the alignment restriction. Its main class feature is being able to convert any fire spells into sacred damage (half sacred at first, then once you hit level 4, full sacred damage).

    It does suffer the loss of a few caster levels (and you have to multiclass as cleric), but taking Practiced Spellcaster solves your Arcane CL problems. Also, you automatically add Paladin spells to your spellbook for some odd, awesome reason.

    It's only 5 levels long, so you're free to PrC elsewhere. I made an 18th level Wizard/Cleric/Fatespinner/SFP once. He blew stuff up without even taking Practiced Spellcaster. Maximized Sacred Orb of Fire = win.


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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    All you need to do to be a blaster is optimize metamagic out the wazoo until you're on par with the rest of the group. The real obstacle is that everything has fire resistance or immunity. Ways to bypass:

    Searing Spell: +1 level to ignore resistance and halve immunity. This is your best option, but I think the realmshelps entry left out and important limitation on fire subtypes. You'll want to double check.

    Consecrate Spell: +1 level to change half the damage to "divine awesomeness", like Flame Strike. The evil version apparently only applies to one specific spell, so fail.

    Planar Sorcerer Substitution level (6th): you give up a low level spell slot and in return gain the ability to change half of your energy damage to force whenever you want.

    Daggerspell Mage: Invocation of the Knife allows you to change half of your energy damage into magical slashing damage. Loses a caster level, very specific feats and flavor, not the best option at all.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2009-05-06 at 08:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by AslanCross View Post
    If you really want to use fire without being gimped by immunities, might I suggest the Silver Flame Pyromancer from Five Nations (Eberron book). You could easily refluff it for the flavor and the alignment restriction. Its main class feature is being able to convert any fire spells into sacred damage (half sacred at first, then once you hit level 4, full sacred damage).

    It does suffer the loss of a few caster levels (and you have to multiclass as cleric), but taking Practiced Spellcaster solves your Arcane CL problems. Also, you automatically add Paladin spells to your spellbook for some odd, awesome reason.

    It's only 5 levels long, so you're free to PrC elsewhere. I made an 18th level Wizard/Cleric/Fatespinner/SFP once. He blew stuff up without even taking Practiced Spellcaster. Maximized Sacred Orb of Fire = win.
    Hmm.....

    If I went:

    Wizard 3/MS 4, taking Arcane Disciple for Exorcism. That gets me into Sacred Exorcist, which grants turning, which allows me to enter Pyromancer at level 9 with only the one mandatory lost caster level, but is it worth it?

    And that's without trying to break/adapt it with things like Fire Domain(turn water elementals, rebuke fire elementals) or Domains that might grant turnings to arcane casters.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Hmm.....

    If I went:

    Wizard 3/MS 4, taking Arcane Disciple for Exorcism. That gets me into Sacred Exorcist, which grants turning, which allows me to enter Pyromancer at level 9 with only the one mandatory lost caster level, but is it worth it?

    And that's without trying to break/adapt it with things like Fire Domain(turn water elementals, rebuke fire elementals) or Domains that might grant turnings to arcane casters.
    There is something I cannot understand.
    In all the talk about blasting, about fire-damage-based characters, even about tilting your character toward religion, nobody has mentioned the Sanctified One of Kord from Complete Champion.

    In one level, it turns all Fire damage into Holy damage.
    It costs one caster level, but it will turn a Fire-based blaster from one of the weakest damage dealers into one of the best.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Hmm, I always liked (Not the best choice but fun) Warmage. You have access to most major fire spells in the game and a few extra random spells to help out. You can get searing spell, energy substitution and then Admixture (Double fire) if you want.
    I must not fear.
    Fear is the mind-killer.
    Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
    I will face my fear.
    I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
    And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
    Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
    Only I will remain.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Reju View Post
    Admixture (Double fire)
    Admixture is a trap feat in my eyes, having only one real use over Empower - to deal multiple energy types in one spell. Doesn't seem worth it, almost ever. A pyromancer would be fire-only, and more standard wizards prefer non-damaging spells, it seems.
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    I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman_Ted View Post
    There is something I cannot understand.
    In all the talk about blasting, about fire-damage-based characters, even about tilting your character toward religion, nobody has mentioned the Sanctified One of Kord from Complete Champion.

    In one level, it turns all Fire damage into Holy damage.
    It costs one caster level, but it will turn a Fire-based blaster from one of the weakest damage dealers into one of the best.
    It also has the downside of being a dip-only class. That has a more risky 'shenanigans' look to it, I think. I mean, more levels of master specialist, sacred exorcist, or silver flame would be fine by me, but having to finish out sanctified one? No thanks.
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    I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    It also has the downside of being a dip-only class. That has a more risky 'shenanigans' look to it, I think. I mean, more levels of master specialist, sacred exorcist, or silver flame would be fine by me, but having to finish out sanctified one? No thanks.
    I meant it as a replacement for two of those three.

    In one level, it provides the main draw of the SFP. And Sacred Exorcist is just glorified dead levels.

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    Default Re: Pyromancer does what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman_Ted View Post
    I meant it as a replacement for two of those three.

    In one level, it provides the main draw of the SFP.
    But at a later level, as far as I can tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman_Ted View Post
    And Sacred Exorcist is just glorified dead levels.
    After first level, you're probably right, but there has to be some reason why it is list as a +2 tier prestige class for non-clerics.
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