Whats so great about toughness?(4e)

[DizzyD]

I've been reading some of the optimization forums lately and it seems toughness is a common feat. To me toughness has always been that feat that you take if you don't have anything else better to take. I find that durable would be a better option in most cases, but why Is toughness so common? It helps you endure about half a hit. Please enlighten me.

Also, I know It really depends on the build your going for but is there anything that would do a better job of increasing hit points or durability? Maybe even something to increase defenses?

[Burley]

Well, DizzyD, Toughness isn't that great. You're right: It's the kind of feat that you only take when you've got nothing else to take. But, in heroic tier, how many builds actually use up all six feats? There are so many feats, Toughness (while not super great) becomes a "Eh, might as well" feat.
Durable and Toughness are great together, logically. Your surge value goes up by one (maybe two if that fifth hit point bumps you into the next bracket) and you can use them more often. That's survivability thur.

At heroic, I can't really think of anything for improving defenses. In paragon, you have Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes, as well as the PHB2's Paragon Defenses. PD isn't as large a bonus, but it applies to all 3 NADs, so, that's helpful.

If you really want durability, play a dwarf and use the Battlerager Fighter and have a bard handy. Your temporary hp will be so high, you won't have to worry about your regular HP.

[Saph]

Think of it this way: If you're trying to optimise your character, one of the main goals is not to die.

Toughness is one of the only feats that directly helps you not die. At low levels it's about one extra hit. That might not sound like much, but there are really very few feats which can do more than that.

Durable is, unfortunately, pretty much useless unless your party is in the habit of doing endurance runs. It usually takes 4-5 encounters before PCs are running out of healing surges, so unless you frequently fight very long days (or don't have a healer) it won't come into play much.

- Saph

[InaVegt]

Durable is, unfortunately, pretty much useless unless your party is in the habit of doing endurance runs. It usually takes 4-5 encounters before PCs are running out of healing surges, so unless you frequently fight very long days (or don't have a healer) it won't come into play much.

Actually, you'll likely use more surges in a day when you do have a healer.

As without a healer your amount of in-combat healing is very limited, thus increasing the need to end things quickly, thus increasing the amount of daily powers used in the average encounter, thus decreasing the amount of combats in the average day, thus decreasing the average amount of healing surges used.

[Saph]

As without a healer your amount of in-combat healing is very limited, thus increasing the need to end things quickly, thus increasing the amount of daily powers used in the average encounter, thus decreasing the amount of combats in the average day.

Not quite right. This only applies if the party controls how many encounters they fight in a day.

Now, if the party is free to rest whenever they feel like it, then Durable becomes completely useless, as whenever the party's low on surges they'll just rest up. But sometimes you're forced to fight many times in a day, which is why your number of healing surges does matter . . . just not very often.

- Saph

[InaVegt]

Not quite right. This only applies if the party controls how many encounters they fight in a day.

Or if the GM cares about the PCs living to see the end of the adventure.

[LoopyZebra]

Or if the GM cares about the PCs living to see the end of the adventure.

In what alternate reality did DMs stop trying to kill the players? :)

[valadil]

I haven't read up on a lot of 4e builds so this is mostly just speculation from 3rd ed and my own experiences so far.

Characters built for a specific purpose suffer from min maxing. I play a Dragonborn Paladin with 18 str and cha so that I have access to both lines of Paladin abilities. I didn't want to gimp my wisdom based abilities, so my con score is lower than it should be. This is a bad thing for a defender, so I plan on taking toughness to cut my losses. I've been reduced to between 0 and -4 HP several times. Each of those would have been negated with toughness. I imagine that other builds require a few high stats at the expense of con. Toughness lets them make up for that.

[Thajocoth]

In what alternate reality did DMs stop trying to kill the players? :)

I don't try to kill my players... I know they can handle everything I throw at them. Worst I've done is a level 8 Elite, a level 8 and 2 level 7s against a party of 5 Level 2 players. Because the Oni took a few rounds before joining in, and the Satyrs were ready to defect as soon as the Hag or Oni dropped (or after a good diplomacy check from the players), that's 1000xp. For 5 players, that's a level 5 encounter. 3 levels above them.

-----

As for toughness... I've been told many times that my Rogue needs it, but there are just so many good rogue feats! Yeah, I spend a lot of time face down, but I deal a ton of damage first!

[Doug Lampert]

Toughness is one of the only feats that directly helps you not die. At low levels it's about one extra hit. That might not sound like much, but there are really very few feats which can do more than that.

Supporting evidence: Take a level 1 character, 25 HP, 8 surges.

Two more surges adds a potential 12 HP in damage he can take, and to do that he needs to be out of combat or have someone use a power.

Toughness adds 13 HP in damage he can take (5 directly, 8 in one extra HP per surge), and costs nothing to use to full effect.

Which one is more useful? Granted the surges MAY benefit from some other power adding extra recovered HP, but then the toughness MAY actually keep you alive or let the cleric heal someone else and keep them alive.

Now try again with 23 HP and 7 surges. Durable, 10 HP; Toughness, 19 HP. And durable still needs powers or rest to use.

It's HARD to come up with a low level character where durable is actually better than toughness (assuming that the reduced risk of going negative is roughly ballanced by any increased recovery/surge).

Increasing level will make the extra surges increasingly attractive relative to toughness, more ways to spend a surge, surges are worth more, and more bonuses to surges.

But toughness is a VERY GOOD level 1-4 or so feat, and when it becomes less valuable you can always retrain it if you have something better available.

[Arbitrarity]

Actually, Doug, remember that after repeated short rests, I don't think there's anything stopping you from spamming Healing Word and similar out of combat. This is supported by the PHB2 feat Restful healing, which significantly increases the value of healing surges, depending on your leader.
Getting an extra 1d6+4 hp on each of those surges (or 10, with restful healing!), makes those two surges add 27 or more health per day, at the cost of 5 minutes.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Actually, Doug, remember that after repeated short rests, I don't think there's anything stopping you from spamming Healing Word and similar out of combat. This is supported by the PHB2 feat Restful healing, which significantly increases the value of healing surges, depending on your leader.
Getting an extra 1d6+4 hp on each of those surges (or 10, with restful healing!), makes those two surges add 27 or more health per day, at the cost of 5 minutes.

Do remember that every "recharge" of the Healing Words requires an additional 5 minute rest. If you have an hour to kill, you can "spam" Words all you want - but those 5-minute segments can start to add up.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Toughness essentially says "you have an extra level of HP", which increases to 2 lvls at paragon and 3 at epic.

Durable can be useful, but only in the right campaign.

Every character I make who is going to be in melee gets toughness, and ranged characters usually get it unless there is something more pressing.

[Kurald Galain]

I always pick flashy feats over boring "+X to Y" feats, regardless of effectiveness. So I'd pick Footwork Lure, or Arcane Familiar, or any MC feat over toughness.

In terms of effectiveness, it's not a bad feat if you're level 1 or 2, but I'd definitely train out of it afterwards.