[3.5] The Tarrasque, how to make a challenge for EL 21 party

[Capricornus]

Hello all, I'm currently DMing a D&D 3.5 campaign reaching the end of its run and in order to give my players some fan service, I'm putting them up against the Tarrasque. The MM Tarrasque is fine, but I want to enhance it to make it a serious challenge for my party, which are all level 21 currently. I can advance it in HD, which is something I'm pretty familiar with, but I thought I would check with some other experienced DMs who may have done something of the sort in the past or have some insights into modifying creatures in the MM. I've considered adding Tarrasque babies (or using the MM version itself as the baby) or giving the beast flight somehow. Here's the party makeup:

L21 Dwarf Barbarian
L21 Elf Druid
L21 Elf Wizard
L21 Human Monk (Vow of Poverty)

They all have access to the Complete books, Magic Item Compendium, PHB2, and Spell Compendium.

I've looked at the MM stats and it's pretty good, but are there any tricks other DMs have witnessed players using that pretty much nullify the Tarrasque without a fight? Anything I should be on the lookout for?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

[arkol]

Mass fly, and it pretty much is not a challenge anymore.... that's assuming that by now the players don't already fly somehow....

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There was a thread a while back where people restatted the Tarrasque using other feats. It got pretty good(almost to the point where it could challange a 20th Wizard). The key was Martial Study/Stance from ToB, Epic feats from anywhere(including Blinding Speed), the Mageslayer line, and IIRC something from Magic of Incarnum to give it Flight.

The weakness of Mr. T is the fact that all strategies for non-flying enemies after level 10 break down to 'Fly out of reach and drop rocks', the strategy for melee brutes with massive AB is 'stacking miss chance', and the strategy for someone without teleportation is Wall of Force. Get rid of those weaknesses, and they have to attack other weaknesses.

Of course, you still have to beat Ability Drain and Dominate Monster, but those are the bane of anyone not specifically immune.

[tyckspoon]

At a minimum the Tarrasque needs flight/a decent ranged attack and some way to attack incorporeal opponents. That takes care of the obvious methods of evading it and forces your party to at least be a little creative in how they deal with T. Just giving it more HD is pretty pointless; big dumb melee beatsticks are simply not appropriate Epic opponents, and advancing HD just makes it bigger and beatsticky-er (consider giving it a few more points of Intelligence, however- a big smart melee beatstick can still be pretty frightening). You should also feel free to swap out those six instances of Toughness for something useful; maybe Throw Anything so it can hurl trees, cows, houses, etc at people (or, if you make it smart, give it some levels in Hulking Hurler for Really Throw Anything.) If nothing else, swap all the Toughness for Epic Toughness. Magic of Incarnum is also a pretty good resource for that; a few selections of Shape Soulmeld/Open Chakra can give it flight and give its attacks the [Force] descriptor, which covers incorporeal.

[Eldariel]

Make it a Half-Fiend or Half-Dragon. Increases CR by 2 (3 for Fiend - I like Fiend 'cause it'd get more skills that way). You'll need to to give it 4 HD (1 point of CR) to give it an extra point of Int to qualify if using Half-Fiend. This covers the flight-issue and gives it a bunch of handy abilities. Please note that it still doesn't have any ranged weaponry which is a huge problem if the players are smart enough to just skirmish against it; that one burst per minute is negated by 1 Teleport/minute and otherwise it can't catch them, being forced to just take hits until it fails a save/dies. Also, note that while it's immune to ability damage, it's not immune to ability drain (two very different things), so a simple Allip (CR 3 creature) can kill it. Also note that its natural weapons aren't magical out of the box so it can't hit incorporeals.

It has crappy touch AC, bad AC and not-amazing spell resistance. Those are its biggest weaknesses. Basically, anything hits it so it needs to try and tank the bad stuff with immunities, HP and saves (which are all rather respectable, except for the Will-save, but that's quickly fixed by giving it the "Steadfast Determination"-feat which derives Will off Con and makes it immune to failing Fort-saves preventing "machine gun" to wait until it rolls a 1).

This means some spells are horribly efficient against it, and all kinds of high damage one-trick builds tend to work vs. it just fine. I suggest looking into improving its defenses.


One thing to remember is that the Tarrasque has had its feats selected from an inexistent pool. It has, among other things, Toughnessx6; this means it has spent 6 feats to gain 18 HP, less than 3% of its whole HP; such a miniscule amount that the chances of it even factoring into the thing's dying point are practically inexistent.

I strongly suggest you reselect its feats from a more appropriate pool. Use at least the general Brute-feats from PHBII, PHB and all the sources you're allowing. Also note that it qualifies for Epic feats for most of its feats (all but 7 first; feats from HD 21-> are Epic) so you could select what it qualifies for otherwise from this list.


Basically, to make the Tarrasque a challenge:
-Give it some way to flight or fight in an environment where flight doesn't destroy it.
-Give it something that increases its speed, or more likely just something that allows fighting at a range.
-Rework its feats.
-Handwave the lack of Ability Drain-immunity, and make its natural weapons magical so it can hit incorporeals.
-Consider reworking its skills; it could have quite the Spot & Listen, for example, which would allow it to penetrate Invisibility (another huge issue the thing suffers of), and Illusions if you get the Spot-check to hit 80.


EDIT: For ranged attacks, the only thing that really worked was the "Detach"-feat from Savage Species; basically it allows the Tarrasque to rip up a part of itself that can deal damage, and use that part as a thrown weapon. This could work, especially if you decide that those spikes on its back count as weapons. Range increment 20', but better than nothing; you can still throw it 100' away, or 200' with Far Shot and if picking Power Shot, the Tarrasque can PA for up to 48.

[Draken]

Don't forget to give it the 500 feet radius aura of flight limitation they gave him in 4th Edition.

That was an interesting solution to deal with flight, really. No one can fly out of his range.

[angus cotton]

Illusions also work well.

[SurlySeraph]

There was a thread a while back where people restatted the Tarrasque using other feats. It got pretty good(almost to the point where it could challange a 20th Wizard). The key was Martial Study/Stance from ToB, Epic feats from anywhere(including Blinding Speed), the Mageslayer line, and IIRC something from Magic of Incarnum to give it Flight.

That'd be this thread.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Give the Tarrasque a bubble of AMF. It's only (Su) ability is the Fear Aura, which is pretty pathetic at these levels. The primary types of spells that can get through that are the Orb Of X series, which have a 30% chance of returning to sender, postage due, due to his Carapace. That will, if Big T can close with them before they take flight, also negate their Flight.

[Chronos]

Since that re-feat thread died out, I've thought about it some more:
First, Tome of Battle maneuvers turn out to not be as useful as we'd thought, by RAW, since Adaptive Style requires having a level of Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade (and besides, what's the point in teleporting 50' when you're 70' long?). Second, nobody in that thread (myself included) noticed the Crystal Helm soulmeld, which can make his attacks [force]. Third, it turns out that flight (albeit very slow flight) is available at a cost of only two feats, not three, thanks to Astral Vambraces.

A rundown of good feats to take:
Endurance (prereq for Steadfast Determination)
Steadfast Determination (much better Will save, never fail Fort saves)
Open Least Chakra: Head (allows binding Crystal Helm and also helps a bit with Will saves)
Shape Soulmeld: Crystal Helm (helps a bit more with Will saves, and gives attacks Force descriptor)
Open Lesser Chakra: Arms (allows binding Astral Vambraces)
Shape Soulmeld: Astral Vambraces (gives Flight)
Open Least Chakra: Hands (allows binding Sphinx Claws)
Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws (grants Pounce)
Open Soul Chakra (epic): Allows binding Keeneye Lenses
Shape Soulmeld: Keeneye Lenses (True Seeing)
Power Attack: Goes without saying
Combat Reflexes: Also goes without saying

Which still leaves you with five more feats to pick, all of which can be epic.

Of course, that thread was restricted to feats, just for the sake of discussion, but you don't have to stick to that restriction. Big T is smart enough to qualify for class levels, and even a single level in any Tome of Battle class or Incarnate can give very nice benefits.


One other point, if you want to challenge a level 21 party: Do any of your casters have Epic Spellcasting? And if so, what epic spells do they know? Any other significant resources, like their own private demiplane where they can take some time to prepare for this fight?

[Salt_Crow]

I like giving Tarrasque Half-Fiend template. EAT CL 48 Blasphemy!!

[arkol]

As fun as it could be it's RAW illegal... but hey if you're the DM you can ignore that tiny detail... but here's why:

"Half-fiend" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Abilities: Str 45, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 14

[chiasaur11]

As fun as it could be it's RAW illegal... but hey if you're the DM you can ignore that tiny detail... but here's why:

Awakened Tarrasque.

With, of course, a monocle.

[Lycanthromancer]

Don't just add on a couple of initiator levels and call it good; replace its racial HD with initiator and meldshaper levels, so you don't have to spend all Mr. T's feats on opening its chakras.

Make an epic abomination worthy of BEING epic. Make it an awakened phrenic Magical Beast 20/Warblade 20/totemist 20, and give the players an epic quest to defeat a legendary beast. Of epic legend.

Though, as you'd imagine, a core wizard 20 could quite probably take him out within a round, assuming he's prepared and ready to destroy the game, but I doubt you'd allow that kind of hideously overpowered cheese....right?

[Icewalker]

A magic dispelling ability somewhere would be handy for dealing with those pesky fly spells, as well as a number of other similar problems. Just a possible option.

[Capricornus]

Wow, thanks so much for the replies so far!

As for the party, the wizard just leveled to 21 so I don't know if he took Epic Spellcasting. Not sure about the Druid either. I've got at least a couple weeks to get this ready, so I can check on that. They don't have a private demiplane, not sure what benefit that would have, as it's not as though the Tarrasque knows they're coming. They're not also insane optimizers, and I don't know how much their players know about the Tarrasque, though they do have their own Monster Manuals...

Looking at that other thread, and Chronos' kind summary, I've got lots to consider, but a flying, force-weaponed, true-seeing Tarrasque would certainly fit the bill for horrifying my players.

And yes, a CL 48 Blasphemy is amusing. Not strictly possible out of the gate, but that can be got around. Not the route I'm going though. I did consider a Monster of Legend template though, but wasn't quite good enough, though I may give it a second look.

Question: Where does that Epic Spellcasting Harrier feat come from? The one in the Epic Level Handbook I have isn't the same as what you're describing.

Edit: Yes! A monocle! I wish I could work that in somehow. :D

[Eldariel]

As fun as it could be it's RAW illegal... but hey if you're the DM you can ignore that tiny detail... but here's why:

Advancing it by 4 HD gives it an ability score increase it can put into Int (it's got Humanoid intelligence so adding it to Int is a fair game). I even said as much. It's got unlimited advancement table, and 4 HD is just 1 CR. Also, as a bonus, this means CL 52 Blasphemy (of course, I'd hold back on using it in a normal game; in fact, I'd remove it unless you happen to be a murderous DM who wants to say "Rock falls, everyone dies." in which case it's a decent move to reconsider DMing).

I'd make it a half-fiend for:
8+Int (in this case, -1; Half-Fiend increases it by 4) skills (lots of epic checks)!
Wings (yes, it needs 'em or an equivalent)

and that's about it. Those spell-likes are superb being derived off Cha & HD (this being something they have plenty of), but I don't think you should use them to their given potential against most players. Of course, properly played epic caster is still in no danger, but I doubt you'd be seeing those.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give it Divine Rank 0, most of the benefits would be redundant with the immunities it already has, but it would get the following:
*Base land speed 140 ft.
*Maximum HP per hit die
*Skills that grant synergy bonuses grant another +2 synergy bonus at 25 ranks, and again at 45 ranks, and so on
*Immunity to polymorph and transmutation effects, such as Flesh to Stone
*Immunity to mind-affecting effects

Give it the Phrenic template from XPH, keep in mind that psi-like abilities are always used as though augmented for the max, which is really powerful at 48 HD. The +2 Int also qualifies it for Half-Fiend. That gives it wings for a 140 ft. fly speed and some useful spell-like abilities. It should have around +50 to spot and listen, +40 to hide, +50 survival, etc. With its speed it can overtake any party, and no longer will the PCs go track it down and start the encounter, if they go looking for it the tarrasque spots them first, have time to buff with Unholy Aura, and may even get a surprise round on them. Give it the feats Improved Flight for good maneuverability and Magic in the Blood (PGtF) to use its 1/day spell-like (and possibly psi-like) abilities 3/day. Considering Destruction, Horrid Wilting, 48d10 DC 39 Mind Thrust, and caster level 48 Blasphemy, the PCs will want it to be full attacking someone every round. It could (should) even get Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Poison (DC 39!) and maybe Maximize Spell-Like Ability: Horrid Wilting.

[Lappy9000]

Awakened Tarrasque.

With, of course, a monocle.

Why bother with anything else if your setting's tarrasque wears a monocle? I'd suggest a +4 Dastardly Moustachio of Flight.

[chiasaur11]

Why bother with anything else if your setting's tarrasque wears a monocle? I'd suggest a +4 Dastardly Moustachio of Flight.

And, of course, a top hat.

[Ravens_cry]

Don't forget to give it the 500 feet radius aura of flight limitation they gave him in 4th Edition.

That was an interesting solution to deal with flight, really. No one can fly out of his range.

Just means you fly higher to drop the rocks. Yes, it takes longer, but if your dropping from higher so the rocks hurt more.

[Draken]

Just means you fly higher to drop the rocks. Yes, it takes longer, but if your dropping from higher so the rocks hurt more.

I am pretty sure that was just the horizontal Radius, while the aura itself is a cilinder reaching up into the stratosphere.

If it is not, well, it should be.

[Talic]

1) Environment. This bad boy has a burrow speed. Few things damage a caster's ability to hurt monsters like 5 feet of dirt. Also, monster placement. If it's terrorizing underground communities, there's less that can be done with the mythical 2 mile rock drop.

2) Retool feats. As has been evidenced, Big T has way too many horrible feats. There's a lot of in depth information already in this thread, so I won't go further.

3) Templating options. Dragonborn, perhaps? Breath weapons would make for fun, specially if you metabreath them up.

[Poil]

I am pretty sure that was just the horizontal Radius, while the aura itself is a cilinder reaching up into the stratosphere.

If it is not, well, it should be.

Wouldn't that be devastating to anyone flying over where it is sleeping? Should also make it pretty easy to find once a high level mage starts to examine why flight always fails in a particular area (once one of them survives the fall that is).

[Oslecamo]

Equipment, nuff said.

Give the tarrasque one class level of anything, and it sudenly gets equipment...Based on it's ECL! Wich is OVER 9000!(actually around over 50-60 but you get the point).

It also instantly gets the elite array of stats for free granting him the necessary intelegence to use equipment.

Like other said something to grant him flight, something to grant him magic attacks, ect, ect.

For extra evilness make the equipment be in the form ot magic tatoos. They cost double, but can't be destroyed and the party can't get their hands on them if they defeat Mr. big T.

[Coidzor]

A magic dispelling ability somewhere would be handy for dealing with those pesky fly spells, as well as a number of other similar problems. Just a possible option.

... Anti-Magic Breath anyone?

[Wulfram]

Give the Tarrasque an accompanying Windstorm. Should stop anyone from flying, and complicate matters on the ground too

[sonofzeal]

1) Environment. This bad boy has a burrow speed. Few things damage a caster's ability to hurt monsters like 5 feet of dirt. Also, monster placement. If it's terrorizing underground communities, there's less that can be done with the mythical 2 mile rock drop.

2) Retool feats. As has been evidenced, Big T has way too many horrible feats. There's a lot of in depth information already in this thread, so I won't go further.

3) Templating options. Dragonborn, perhaps? Breath weapons would make for fun, specially if you metabreath them up.

A creature that big, with a burrow speed? No, no, you want Earth Glide for this. That way it doesn't leave massive tunnels for the party to follow and catch it from behind.

[InaVegt]

A creature that big, with a burrow speed? No, no, you want Earth Glide for this. That way it doesn't leave massive tunnels for the party to follow and catch it from behind.

Creatures with a burrow speed leave, by default, no tunnels to walk through.

[sonofzeal]

Creatures with a burrow speed leave, by default, no tunnels to walk through.

I'm not disputing that might be the official rule (though I've never seen it; quote?), but that seriously strains credibility.