alternate magic

[Shinizak]

I've always liked the concept of naming/shadow/subtle/etc magic and recently got my hands on the tome of magic, but what I saw in there bored me to tears. Mostly because they took the mystery out of it and turned them into little more then a magic revolver. Do you guys have any suggestions for making magic spells without A) making them into convenient weapon for the paper cannons to use as they see fit. B)taking the mystery out of it (like most D&D does).

[Dhavaer]

Play Mage. Or maybe Ars Magica. D&D doesn't really do mystery.

[Cedrass]

Yeah Mage: The Awakening is pretty much what you're looking for I'd say. Not as combat-centric as D&D tho (The way I see it anyways)

It's by White Wolf publishing.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psionics could do it, if it's reflavored. Have your astral constructs be horrific lumps of ectoplasmic flesh, with screaming faces writhing in pain within them. Various divinations could be your mind delving into the akashic collective, pulling from the communal knowledge of a billion minds (living and deceased) from a hundred thousand races, which is floating just outside the realm of normal thought. Your creation powers could be tapping into the infinities of the temporal cosmos, pulling copies of long-extinct items from somewhere beyond the planes of dreaming.

Your descriptions will go a long way to making the mechanics more 'mysterious,' and the mechanics behind psionics are generic enough to allow you to describe them however you wish. You don't have to deal with spellbooks or specific verbal/somatic/material components that restrict the fluff you want to use...ever.

Alternately, play a binder.

[BobVosh]

Play Call of Cthulu, it is all about mysteries and investigating. >.>

GURPS can do it too (believe it not, gurps can do it )

Mage seems to remove the mysteries of it as well, imo.

I want to say warhammer fantasy, but I can't remember the system too well.

[Chronos]

Rules for a magic system are inherently going to suck the mystery out of it. If you want a mysterious magic system, then you're going to have to go with a very rules-light system, or make it up yourself as you go along (which amount to much the same thing).

[Ravens_cry]

Wasn't there a system one of the books where casting magic literally cost hit points if you over did it? Or maybe you had to make fortitude saves, I don't know, I read it back when I was in the 'ooh pretty pictures' faze, years before I actually played.
Another way to add mystery is to have spell component pouches contain only a set amount of spell components, like healers kit, and provide tiers of kits with more expensive kits for higher level spell components. With the right Survival check, maybe they can find some of the in wild, or gather information and/or knowledge: local find a magic shop. Maybe adding two doses, act as as a Maximized spell.
But above all, how you narrate adds to the mystery.
"You cast fireball, the wizard takes. . . 14 points of damage" isn't very mysterious. "With a roaring woosh, the gout of flame embraces the wizard in its scorching touch. He cries out in alarm as the flames singe his beard. As the smoke clears, you can see he is quite angry." is. . better.

[Dhavaer]

Wasn't there a system one of the books where casting magic literally cost hit points if you over did it?

Shadowrun works like that. The closest thing in D&D would probably be vitalising spell points.

[Decoy Lockbox]

In the Riddle of Steel system, casting spells caused a chance that the caster would age a number of years, with the chance being drastically higher for higher-leveled spells. I've never played the system (just read the book), but it sounds quasi-solid.

But as some of the posters have said, having rules for magic really does suck most of the mystery out of it. If you want the players to have the mystery, just make some rules and not tell them about them, force them to discover the way magic works in your world. It might piss them off, but its certainly more mysterious.

Problem is, if you can perform repeatable feats with magic, it becomes much more like a science, and less like an art.

[Ravens_cry]

Shadowrun works like that. The closest thing in D&D would probably be vitalising spell points.

Thanks, that was exactly what I was thinking of!
Another way to add mystery, is to maybe have a power point parser system, kind of like in the Dragon Knight series. With a set of nouns like Evocate, Transmute, Summon, and so forth and verbs like Earth, Life, Rock, Flame, Water, Ice, and then have the players and DM work together describing it. Perhaps, Evocate Rock could drop a big old rock on a creatures head, while Summon Flame, might summon a Flame elemental. The idea is, things don't exactly act the same way every time. It would take a lot of work to get the system right, but it would certainly add mystery.

[Satyr]

Well, whenever magical systems are discussed, the obligatory Witchcraft link should not be missed. It's a great game, and it's free.

It isn't so hard to bring the mystic of magic back into D&D (3.5) if you are willing to slaughter a few holy cows to this end, like Vancian spellcasting and the like. We did this for Serpents and Sewers and never regretted it. Basically, make spellcasting not suceed automatically and take more time to cast.

[Morty]

I fail to see how are Vancian casting and mysteriousness mutually exclusive. I myself wouldn't bother making D&D magic "mysterious" - it's easier to just play a system in which magic is supposed to be mysterious and subtle than to hammer D&D magic into being like that. Also, to be frank, as Chronos already mentions, regulating magic by numbers and rules sucks the mystery out of it anyway.

[Lycanthromancer]

I fail to see how are Vancian casting and mysteriousness mutually exclusive.

Uh huh. Because scrying on a homemade television set, using explosive nitrogen compounds to 'cast' a fireball, and building up static electricity to shock someone with a lightning bolt is SOOOO mysterious...

Sounds more like MacGuyver to me.

[Morty]

Uh huh. Because scrying on a homemade television set, using explosive nitrogen compounds to 'cast' a fireball, and building up static electricity to shock someone with a lightning bolt is SOOOO mysterious...

Sounds more like MacGuyver to me.

And if you did all those things in a spell point-based system without preparing them in advance they'd suddenly become more mysterious? That, and I don't see how material components get in the way of mysteriousness and subtlety, as long as they're not silly like in D&D. It's funny how Vancian casting is called a "sacred cow" while it's really more like a scapegoat.

[Satyr]

That may depend on expectations, but I found the Vancian slot spellcasting system too predictable to be very mystical. I also found it too restrictive for its own good. Vancian spellcasting is very obvious in its means - the spells always work, they always work in a very distinctive way, and the 'fuel' of the spellcasters are very predictable and, let's face it, unflexible. It fulfils the role it is supposed to do, but that doesnt mean that it does it particularly good.

The way I see magical systems, rules and regulations are something like a necessary drawback. You need regulations and limitations to implement the magic in a roleplaying game, both to make it usable for the players through the mechanics, and to make sure that it doesn't become too powerful and overshadow more mundane characters. In the Vancian spellcasting, this works through the limitation of ressources and a predetermined selection of spells. In the second field, limiting the power to a degree it fails pretty much.

It is actually not that difficult to implement a few elements into D&D magic which make it more mysterious It is very easy to make it less predicable (e.g. add a skill roll or something similar that makes it possible to make a spell fail from time to time. And you could also make the spells a bit slower, so that they are less treated as a tool and more like a miracle. This has also the other benefit that it helps with the balance issues.

But the best way to improve the ambient and atmosphere of magic is exclusivity. If you want to make sure that magic induces a feel of awe and wonder, make it rare and special. Nothing banalises any potential atmospheric and impressive plot element as much as overkill.

[Morty]

I think we need to define what we mean by "Vancian casting". Because a lot of the things you say apply to D&D casting, but not to the very fact that wizards prepare their spells, which was what I meant when I said that it's not mutually exclusive with mysteriousness. After all, is it not possible to make magic wondrous, unpredictable etc. and have wizards prepare their spells, whatever those spells might be? I don't think so. In fact, I seem to recall that in original Dying Earth novels by Jack Vance wizards had to spend a lot of time preparing a single spell and then casting it. I might be wrong, as I haven't read them, sadly, but it seems "rare and special" enough and sort of hinders attempts to use it as a tool. And finally, your post seems to blend "mysterious magic" and "better magic".

[Kylarra]

Easiest way to prevent magic from working all the time the way you want is to write up a wild magic table. The planes listing recommends a level check vs DC 15 + spell level, but you can always tweak the numbers to your satisfaction.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm has a basic table.

[Chronos]

Uh huh. Because scrying on a homemade television set,...

I've seen this many times, and it doesn't make sense. Copper and nitric acid don't make a television set; they make a cloud of corrosive, poisonous vapors. Presumably, it's inspired by the classical oracles, who got their mystic visions from breathing noxious volcanic fumes.