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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Baalthazaq's Avatar

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    Default [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    Earlier I posted a thread stating I needed a cool base of operations, and I think we all agreed on the Genesis spell being ideal for what I wanted. Biffo as usual was a great help, but gave me something that would have me strangled by the average DM, so I toned it down a little,but ultimately went with an edited version of his suggestion. (I also changed a couple of things for flavour).

    Now, for what I want to put in it: A school.

    The character concept was always basically a generalist wizard (or sorcerer with some fluff changes) who understood magic differently from his peers, or thought they were wrong. "Fools, why can't they see, it's not 8 schools, it's 9! 3x3, it's makes no sense otherwise!" something like that.

    Things I need to build my school: Cool concepts for a physical school (ala Hogwarts, moving staircases, secret rooms, portals, etc). Currently my favourite is overlapping 9 genesis spells to have a "plane of <spellschool>" for each school of magic, although this doesn't fit with the character entirely.

    More importantly:
    An actual school of magic not already covered by the other schools.

    This can either be:
    1) An extra concept for a school. Currently I'm leaning towards manipulation of fate ala fatespinner/fortune's friend/etc.
    2) A list of spells that don't really fit in the school they're currently in.
    3) A complete "rework" of the magic system. Moving spells around based on a different criteria to how they're organized now. (Possibly something ala Erfworld's magic system, but with "proper" names).
    4) Something I've not thought of.

    I've already got a couple of ideas for statting the character out in a way that fits the concept, but it's homebrew.
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    I've already asked all potential DM's of our next 3.5 game if they'd allow Spell Focus(Random), where I roll a 2D8 for each spell I know, and if there is a double, I get +1 DC. Each additional spell focus gives another D8. A triple will give +2 DC, a quadruple +3. Etc.

    This represents him learning more about magic, and gradually mastering it. Alternatively, if we come up with a new school, I'd prefer to be a master specialist of that school, like the "fate" school. I just want to make sure this is as fleshed out as possible before using it.


    I really like the character idea and I don't want to finally play him then be disappointed that I missed an opportunity to do "X" with him.
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    Gnome Illusionist. Preferably with Cityscape allowed.

    Kender Spellthief.

    LG Hellbred Cleric of Levistus. Fiendish Codex needed.
    Low levels good but hope to reach epic.

    Wizard developing his own school of magic.
    Low levels good but hope to reach >18.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baalthazaq View Post
    "Fools, why can't they see, it's not 8 schools, it's 9! 3x3, it's makes no sense otherwise!"
    Rule of Three, eh? You could consider Universal to be its own school whose best spells are mostly yet undiscovered. It seems to be about promoting other magical effects. Alternately, you could say that spells of time and motion -- fly, feather fall, telekinesis, haste, mage hand, time stop, etc. -- are really Universal. It's not like they belong in Transmutation. (Alternately, you can beef up Evocation with these, since they manipulate energy.)

    Although if you wanted to put the schools in a 3x3 grid, Abjuration could easily be the middle school that opposes all others. Except that Illusion is mostly opposed by Divination... hmmm.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Baalthazaq's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    I was thinking of stealing timestop for fate.

    I wasn't actually thinking of doing a 3x3, but it's one idea I'm rolling around in my head. I'm liking where you're going with Abjuration not being a real school... something to think about.
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    Gnome Illusionist. Preferably with Cityscape allowed.

    Kender Spellthief.

    LG Hellbred Cleric of Levistus. Fiendish Codex needed.
    Low levels good but hope to reach epic.

    Wizard developing his own school of magic.
    Low levels good but hope to reach >18.
    1 custom feat request but it isn't vital.

    Warforge Artificer (Backstory not Eberron specific)
    Minimum level 6. Needs dryad cohort.

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    Glyphic's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    I just want to toss this out there..

    In 2nd edition Ad&d, there were nine schools. Divination was broken up into Lesser divination, and Greater Divination.

    Lesser Divination, were all divination spells 3rd level and below, that anyone could learn. Greater divination, you had to specialize in, giving up..a specific school, but you got access to all those spells above third level.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    Divination was broken up into Lesser divination, and Greater Divination.
    I think we can do better than arbitrarily splitting a particular school into two schools divided only by spell level.

    I ramble about reorganizing the schools of magic here. Basic principle to keep in mind: Each school should do a particular sort of thing in a particular way. If you let a school be a means to any darned end -- e.g. by arbitrarily decreeing that the power of unlife can cause fear in living beings (but actual enchantment spells can't ) -- the divisions between them don't function as meaningful restrictions. If you let a school accomplish its ends by any means -- e.g. protecting things with traps instead of preventative wards -- then arcane magic starts to look suspiciously like theurgy. If you're calling up spirits with specific portfolios of concern it makes sense, but if the spell is an unthinking tool that does things all by itself, it shouldn't know what it's being used to accomplish.

    So a school should strictly and directly prevent things from happening to targets; reveal information to the caster; instantaneously transport objects, creatures, or substances; or do whatever it does to whatever it does it to however it does it.

    One potential problem is that D&D uses the classical elements, so fire is legitimately a substance as well as a form of energy. By extension, lighting, positive energy, and even real-world lacks of things that aren't even substances, like cold and darkness, qualify as stuff within the context of this fantasy world. It's possibly easiest to combine Conjuration and Evocation into one school, and then maybe split it up along different lines than matter/energy. Otherwise you wind up wondering e.g. whether one should have to evoke fire elementals instead of conjure them. Are incorporeal undead energy beings? Should we have to worry about whether they are? Ideally not, I think.
    Last edited by Devils_Advocate; 2009-05-09 at 03:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Lycanthromancer's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    One of the many things I prefer about psionics is that the power disciplines (the 'schools' of psionics) divide things up not with the end result, but with how said result is accomplished.

    Invoking and manipulating energies is psychokinesis (the kineticist's specialty). Altering time and space is psychoportation (the nomad's purview). Altering and manipulating the mind is telepathy (the preferred method of the telepath). Creating and manipulating inert matter is metacreation (the enterprise of the shaper). Gathering information and changing fate is clairsentience (the seer's schtick). Alteration of the body of both yourself and other creatures is psychometabolism (modus operandi of the egoist).

    No muss, no fuss. It's generally pretty easy to figure out where any given effect goes, due to its specific nature. There might be an effect here or there that could go either way (Such as illusion; is it telepathy, psychokinesis, or clairsentience? Depends on how it does its thing, really), but generally it's pretty easy to figure out, and it's pretty darned consistent.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    Ah, right. Another thing to consider, if you conclude that each spell school should be one means, is how you want Illusion to work. If it produces real light and sound, it's basically refined Evocation. If it alters minds directly, it's akin to Enchantment and probably also always [Mind-Effecting]. Ooh, and another thing:

    "I disbelieve!"

    Traditionally, you could get a chance to see through an illusion by declaring that you disbelieve something, which creates a bit of a problem. Well, in 3E, you don't have to give a detailed description of how you're looking at everything; you get to make Stop checks automatically. And you don't have to declare disbelief to see through an illusion; you get a free Will save if you interact with it or closely examine it.

    Wait a minute. Just what the hell is "interaction" in this context?

    Obviously, just noticing the illusion isn't enough. Were that the case, you'd just get a save: since making you perceive unreal sensations is what an illusion does, you'd have a chance to negate an illusion whenever it effected you. On the other hand, proof that something is an illusion is supposed to let you disbelieve it automatically, so obviously Will (Disbelief) isn't for when you swing your sword through an illusory monster.

    So when do you get a save for "interacting" with something? It doesn't say. It's a vague non-standard.

    I have a better idea: Illusion spells create false sensations independent of anyone's belief of them. Creatures can disbelieve an illusion, believe in an illusion, be suspicious and uncertain about an illusion, or even mistakenly think that a real thing is an illusion, based on the evidence available to them. None of this is the direct result of the spell, nor has any impact on its functioning: You don't "successfully disbelieve" and turn the illusion translucent, but neither do you unsuccessfully disbelieve and lose any suspicions you might have

    If you want to give characters a chance to tell that an illusion doesn't quite look or sound right, let them make checks opposed by a check by the caster (Spot vs. Disguise, Listen vs. Disguise, or Forgery vs. Forgery). The caster gets a +10 bonus on this check.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Baalthazaq's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    Hmmm... I don't want to physically change the rulesystem. I'm just going to play a generalist, but I'm going to choose my spells based on what I believe to be my "specialist school" if you know what I mean.

    I agree the current system is a little screwy, I'm going to be using that in the roleplaying part, where I'm talking to (especially any other wizards in the party) about "how the hell does Illusion not fit into either enchantment or evocation?! Think you're so damn clever, explain that to me. Oh illusion is your specialist school huh? Well then explain that to me Dr Dumbass, what the hell you're actually doing in illusion?"

    I don't like putting the movement spells in evocation as that's overpowering it a little... I do like the idea of movement being separate from the other schools.

    Actually... this discussion is really helping me. Gives me ideas for how my character is going through his thoughts and determining what's wrong with magic. What is it he just can't put his finger on yet, but he knows it makes no sense.

    I'm probably making him an archmage or ultimate magus. Seems like he has a sorcerer's edge to him.
    Last edited by Baalthazaq; 2009-05-10 at 02:50 AM.
    Looking for a PBP 3.5 game.
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    Gnome Illusionist. Preferably with Cityscape allowed.

    Kender Spellthief.

    LG Hellbred Cleric of Levistus. Fiendish Codex needed.
    Low levels good but hope to reach epic.

    Wizard developing his own school of magic.
    Low levels good but hope to reach >18.
    1 custom feat request but it isn't vital.

    Warforge Artificer (Backstory not Eberron specific)
    Minimum level 6. Needs dryad cohort.

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    I agree with the time/space/movement idea. Make it the arcane counterpart to Psychoportation. That'd also take Conjuration and Transmutation down a peg or two each, as well.
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    I used to have a homebrew variant with nine schools.

    - arcane (metamagic: detecting, enchancing, and countering other spells)
    - creation (producing matter out of thin air, generally in the form of useful objects)
    - dimension (teleportation effects, gates, and scrying)
    - energy (producing elemental energy out of thin air, in the form of gusts of wind, flame bursts, and so forth)
    - force (manipulation of kinetic energy, in the form of telekinesis or force fields)
    - mental (mind-affecting magic)
    - physical (body-affecting magic)
    - illusion (manipulating light and darkness)
    - necromancy (manipulating souls, life energy, raising skeletons, and so forth).

    The point of this variant is that all magic is grouped by how it does things, not by what it does. This means that the same effect can sometimes be found in different schools. For instance, if you want to try a Hold Person effect, you could employ force (to siphon off his kinetic energy), mental (to persuade him not to move), physical (to prevent his limbs from moving) or necromancy (by draining his strength).
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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I used to have a homebrew variant with nine schools.

    - arcane (metamagic: detecting, enchancing, and countering other spells)
    - creation (producing matter out of thin air, generally in the form of useful objects)
    - dimension (teleportation effects, gates, and scrying)
    - energy (producing elemental energy out of thin air, in the form of gusts of wind, flame bursts, and so forth)
    - force (manipulation of kinetic energy, in the form of telekinesis or force fields)
    - mental (mind-affecting magic)
    - physical (body-affecting magic)
    - illusion (manipulating light and darkness)
    - necromancy (manipulating souls, life energy, raising skeletons, and so forth).

    The point of this variant is that all magic is grouped by how it does things, not by what it does. This means that the same effect can sometimes be found in different schools. For instance, if you want to try a Hold Person effect, you could employ force (to siphon off his kinetic energy), mental (to persuade him not to move), physical (to prevent his limbs from moving) or necromancy (by draining his strength).
    How'd you work this out? Moved all the spells in the PHB to an appropriate school? Or did you use a kind of "seed" system? I really like this idea, and would love to see how you made it work.

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    Baalthazaq's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I used to have a homebrew variant with nine schools.

    - arcane (metamagic: detecting, enchancing, and countering other spells)
    - creation (producing matter out of thin air, generally in the form of useful objects)
    - dimension (teleportation effects, gates, and scrying)
    - energy (producing elemental energy out of thin air, in the form of gusts of wind, flame bursts, and so forth)
    - force (manipulation of kinetic energy, in the form of telekinesis or force fields)
    - mental (mind-affecting magic)
    - physical (body-affecting magic)
    - illusion (manipulating light and darkness)
    - necromancy (manipulating souls, life energy, raising skeletons, and so forth).

    The point of this variant is that all magic is grouped by how it does things, not by what it does. This means that the same effect can sometimes be found in different schools. For instance, if you want to try a Hold Person effect, you could employ force (to siphon off his kinetic energy), mental (to persuade him not to move), physical (to prevent his limbs from moving) or necromancy (by draining his strength).
    Sounds cool, but where does transmutation fit in? Isn't it matter-affecting rather than body affecting?
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    Gnome Illusionist. Preferably with Cityscape allowed.

    Kender Spellthief.

    LG Hellbred Cleric of Levistus. Fiendish Codex needed.
    Low levels good but hope to reach epic.

    Wizard developing his own school of magic.
    Low levels good but hope to reach >18.
    1 custom feat request but it isn't vital.

    Warforge Artificer (Backstory not Eberron specific)
    Minimum level 6. Needs dryad cohort.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: [3.X] Help me make a new school of magic?

    Ah, I see. You're looking at it from an in-world academic perspective, where conjurers all know how to cast mage armor because their professors taught them how to cast it, because they think it's a conjuration spell.

    Let's see, then...

    - There are some weirdly categorized spells like divine favor and divine power that work by channeling divinity through the caster. Apparently divinity counts as a form of energy. "How the hell is miracle evocation?! Wish isn't evocation!"
    - Some abjurations are really situational uses of other schools' magic. Sending a creature back to its home plane (conjury) if its extraplanar. Making you invisible (and more, or rather less) to other creatures if they're undead, or animals
    - Healing spells aren't really conjuration, we all know that. If they're not necromancy, then healing is its own school.
    - Why are astral projection and magic jar necromancy while trap the soul is conjuration? They all transport souls out of bodies.
    - Why is fear usually necromancy, and why is bane an exception?
    - Why are glibness, mnemonic enhancer, and fox's cunning transmutation, while bless, feeblemind, and modify memory are enchantment? Mental debuffs seem to be consistently enchantments, and mental buffs seem to only be enchantments when they boost morale. But why?
    - Why is mark of justice necromancy but geas enchantment?
    - Conjuration and evocation can each occasionally do the other's job better, by producing e.g. non-magical fire not subject to spell resistance on the one hand, and "force" more durable than normal matter on the other. Clearly, the extisting division between these schools is completely artificial, and conjurers and evokers just aren't willing to admit it.
    - Shadow spells are notable for being non-illusory "illusions". The epic-level finishes to the shadow conjuration and shadow evocation lines of spells would have to let you just cast any conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell or evocation spell respectively, because by that point they're 100% real. Obviously these spells are partly illusory at best. (And note the particular "two different" non-illusion schools that these spells deal with.)

    That's probably enough for now.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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