True Seeing and Mind Blank

[Eldan]

So, I've been thinking about the two titular spells, since my party is getting to high levels...
Why are there two defensive spells who kill two entire schools of magic? My players love to rely on disguises, illusions and enchantments to solve their problems, but with only two spells they are entirely shut down. That in itself is not a problem, I can just not use them. However, this kind of total defence agains everything just bugs me.
So, would it unbalance anything if I said that they, like other defensive spells, only stop stuff equivalent of spells of their level and lower? Or if there was a caster level check or something?

[Flickerdart]

True Seeing does not foil mundane disguise nor concealment, and Mind Blank is, as an 8th level spell, surely going to be powerful, and is also instrumental in denying the "scry and die" strategy abused by Batmen. They will force your players to think outside the box.

[Adumbration]

Seeing these two together in the same sentence makes me wonder - I hope you'll forgive me a slight derail. Does Mind Blank protect from True Seeing? It says in the description that it foils divinations, so would it also conceal a rogue with Mind Blank and Invisibility, or Displacement?

[Zergrusheddie]

A Wall of Force can take out anyone who is incapable of flying and Forcecage will take out anyone unable to teleport. There are always going to be spells/tactics that seem to negate huge parts of other characters. If a Fighter fails his Glitterdust save, his effectiveness is cut down by a huge amount and a level 1 Grease can completely lock-down a level 20 Frenzied Berserker. Glibness can make any social interaction completely one sided because the player would have a +40 to Bluff. Mind Blank is an extremely powerful spell but as Flicker said, it is a high level spell. True Seeing can be really annoying though.

Best of luck
-Eddie

[Glimbur]

You could make them take a Caster Level check to work. So, if you try to see through a first level gnome illusionist's spell with True Seeing, you're going to succeed... but against Glimbur the Magnificent's Permanent Image you might have problems. This does make the top-tier invisibility spell better.

Likewise, make anyone trying to charm a Mind Blanked person take a CL check opposed by the CL+10 of the Mind Blank.

[Myrmex]

What about Arcane Sight? Could you use Arcane Sight to see Mind Blank's aura?

[lesser_minion]

I'm pretty sure Mind Blank would actually negate True Seeing, even though it probably shouldn't, as True Seeing seems to be a "limit of magical theory" spell in 3.5.

A big mitigating factor in True Seeing is also the fact that you see the original form of magically changed or transmuted things (implying that you can't see the actual form). Because of that, you can have all kinds of fun making magical (but real) changes to the True Seeing wizard's surroundings which his own spell makes him unable to see.

Polymorph a couple of ants into lovecraftian horrors, for example.

[Flickerdart]

Well, when you think about it, True Seeing takes hold by the ointment that you apply to the eyes which is its material component. However, the spell would still work on an Eye of Gruumsh, who loses an eye, or a one-eyed character by some other mishap. It would even work on characters with more than two eyes. Therefore it's not the amount of eyes the salve is applied to that counts, it still works with amounts that aren't two. Thus, you could apply it to one eye only, and see the world properly with one and "truly" with another.

[TheCountAlucard]

Why are there two defensive spells who kill two entire schools of magic?

Yeah, the presence of "single spell shuts down a whole branch of character options" spells can be a little irritating. There's also Death Ward, which shuts down about 90% of the school of necromancy. The Pyrokineticist will likewise be made sad with the application of Energy Immunity.

[DragoonWraith]

One thing I've been considering asking my DM for is a spell (maybe a 9th level spell), that summons some mind-ful spirit to possess an enemy - in the case of a mindless enemy, giving them a mind for my Enchantments to work on, in the case of a Mind-Blanked enemy, engaging in a sort of mental battle that the Mind Blank protects the subject from, but "uses up" the Mind Blank so that my own Enchantments can effect it. In the case of a subject with a non-Blank mind, some sort of penalty to Will saves as a result of fighting off the invading mind.

Of course, my character is currently level 3 in a glacial PbP game, making my plans for level 19 (I lose a CL to Human Paragon) a bit moot...

[CthulhuM]

Of course, there's one spell that instantaneously and totally defeats all of those spells... Disjunction. There's a reason it's a 9th level spell, other than just screwing over your party as a DM.

Alternatively, there's dispel and greater dispel. Really high-level magical combat pretty much revolves around getting those spells off - whoever successfully dispels his opponent first is probably going to win.

Oh, and as for True Seeing, I've always ruled that it shows the true images superimposed over the fake ones, so the spell can't actually make you less aware of what's going on around you - that would sortof defeat the purpose of it.

[lesser_minion]

Well, when you think about it, True Seeing takes hold by the ointment that you apply to the eyes which is its material component. However, the spell would still work on an Eye of Gruumsh, who loses an eye, or a one-eyed character by some other mishap. It would even work on characters with more than two eyes. Therefore it's not the amount of eyes the salve is applied to that counts, it still works with amounts that aren't two. Thus, you could apply it to one eye only, and see the world properly with one and "truly" with another.

By RAW, I'm pretty sure it just enhances the entire sense rather than only enhancing an eye.

I know the whole "murder them with ants" breakage is utter and complete cheese and the ability to use transmutations against true seeing like that is broken though - I would probably rule that you see both images for a transmuted or altered target.

Psionics are nerfed pretty hard by mind blank (many of the best psionics are mind-affecting) but they also gain a power that blows apart mind blank.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psionics are nerfed pretty hard by mind blank (many of the best psionics are mind-affecting) but they also gain a power that blows apart mind blank.

You mean it blows chunks. Dispel psionics is MUCH more likely to work than shatter mind blank. Seriously, run the numbers.

[Gralamin]

You mean it blows chunks. Dispel psionics is MUCH more likely to work than shatter mind blank. Seriously, run the numbers.

Assuming Mindblack, Personal, and both are ML 13, then

Shatter Mind Blank (Costs 9 pp):
Step 1) Target must fail a will save (Chances vary here)
Step 2) 1d20+13 vs 24. Exactly 50% chance.

Dispel Psionics (Costs 9 pp):
Step 1) 1d20+13 vs 24. Exactly 50% chance.

At higher levels Shatter Mindblank becomes a more PP efficient solution, but with a higher chance of failure. Also note Shatter Mindblank has a larger area, and hits the Mindblank no matter what, unlike an area Dispel.

[Curmudgeon]

Why are there two defensive spells who kill two entire schools of magic? My players love to rely on disguises, illusions and enchantments to solve their problems, but with only two spells they are entirely shut down.

True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding

Your characters are not shut down. Only magical disguises and concealments are shut down. By high level they should have at least one skillful character who can do disguises and Hide very well -- without spells. If they're relying on magic for everything they're in for a world of hurt when, say, a flying Favored Soul comes at them with an Antimagic Field.

You shouldn't change the rules if the PCs are using just one set of tactics to accomplish their goals; that would only encourage poor playing practice. Think of this as an opportunity for the players to discover the weakness of narrow thinking. Being forced to run away from a bad situation and regroup isn't much fun, but it is highly educational.

[elonin]

I'd consider mind blank more of a problem since it's duration is a day. True seeing has a hefty component cost and only lasts for 1rnd/level. I tend not to use true seeing preferring arcane sight that has been made permanent. That way a rogue will be given away by any magical auras and any illusion should radiate as such.

[Myrmex]

True Seeing lasts 1min/level.

[Chronos]

You mean it blows chunks. Dispel psionics is MUCH more likely to work than shatter mind blank. Seriously, run the numbers.

I got the impression that lesser_minion was referring to Metafaculty, the ultimate-divination-that-beats-everything-and-this-time-we-mean-it that can explicitly see through a Mindblank.

[Jack_Simth]

Assuming Mindblack, Personal, and both are ML 13, then

Shatter Mind Blank (Costs 9 pp):
Step 1) Target must fail a will save (Chances vary here)
Step 2) 1d20+13 vs 24. Exactly 50% chance.

Dispel Psionics (Costs 9 pp):
Step 1) 1d20+13 vs 24. Exactly 50% chance.

At higher levels Shatter Mindblank becomes a more PP efficient solution, but with a higher chance of failure. Also note Shatter Mindblank has a larger area, and hits the Mindblank no matter what, unlike an area Dispel.

There's a bug in the way Dispel Psionics is written. For the base five power points, Dispel Psionics gives a Dispel check based on your manifester level, max ten. For each extra power point you spend, you get an extra +2 on your check. That 13th level Psion spending 9 power points on Dispel Psionics? He's got 4 points of augmentation (+8), and he's got his base manifester level of 13 (which caps at +10). His Dispel check is 1d20+18, rather than the 1d20+13 that you list.

[Baalthazaq]

I'd say true seeing and mind blank can't overlap.

Here's something else that's fun:
I had a gnome illusionist with high hide skill. An enemy turned on "true seeing", but he was still hiding so didn't spot him.

I cast silent suggestion, and suggested to him that he heard footsteps where there weren't people. (I thought that was a fair ruling of suggestion, you afflict the mind directly rather than the senses).

Result: I actually made the party run away from a gnome, when I couldn't make them run away from an undead corruption breathing shapeshifting dragon.

Some of this is dubious and based on a little homeruling, but some solid facts:
Wear a real disguise while illusioning yourself. True seeing will only penetrate the magic.

Dragon Magazine 337 has a spell called "Cloak of Khyber" which takes 6 hours to work, but protects you for 1day/level from being recognized as a disguised or shapeshifted creature by trueseeing.

Invisible creatures still get to make hide checks vs true seeing.

True seeing doesn't see through solid fog.

Stack up on spells that do extra damage to people with true seeing. (I believe there's some variant of colour spray that does this in the spell compendium?)

True seeing cannot see creatures that actually have no visual component (and therefore protecting yourself with a cloak of khyber and then polymorphing into one of those creatures, will render you invisible to true seeing. It's not that you are an invisible X, you are a creature that has nothing visual to manifest itself, it's true form is not visual).

Example:

Invisible stalkers have an amorphous form. A see invisibility spell shows only a dim outline of a cloud, while a true seeing spell reveals a roiling cloud of vapor.

Mix in shadow conuration with some silent images. If your DM is saying "He sees illusions" then he shouldn't know which is which. If your DM is saying "He doesn't see illusions" he should have some invisible assailants from the shadow creatures.

Everything below this line is dubious, but can work:
Prestidigitation to clean the opponent's eyes of the ointment.
Other dispels.
Blind the opponent with quasi mundane means. (Wall of Iron, stone shape)
Before starting a battle, scrye for ointment and take it or destroy it somehow. Unless he's always got True Seeing active, you should always be able to invisibly sneak up on him and remove it.

Polymorph any object on the ointment to turn it into acid prior to the encounter.

Specific to classes:
Arcane Trickster: Ranged Legerdemain to take ointment.
Warlock: Shatter at will.
Enchanter: "Forget you have the ointment."
Illusionist: Make the ointment invisible.
Transmuter: Make the ointment acid.
Spellthief: Steal true seeing in your first attack.

There are ways around these things, you just need to be creative.

Most creative usage I've ever seen but based on a lot of interpretation of how certain things work: Effectively using a combination of quickened Mord's Mansion, and Major Images, followed up with an alter reality spell, the party basically managed to create a "real city" from illusions that the dragon with true seeing could not see.

The party were running up and down stairs, they were running into doors that took them into extradimensional spaces where the dragon couldn't see them. To him it was entirely like he was fighting them in an invisible city that they could use but he could not.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mind Blank doesn't work against all divinations, only "information gathering by divination spells or effects." It would thwart a Legend Lore spell, but not True Seeing. Nondetection can stop True Seeing, but there's still a chance that it won't due to the caster level check.

[Gralamin]

There's a bug in the way Dispel Psionics is written. For the base five power points, Dispel Psionics gives a Dispel check based on your manifester level, max ten. For each extra power point you spend, you get an extra +2 on your check. That 13th level Psion spending 9 power points on Dispel Psionics? He's got 4 points of augmentation (+8), and he's got his base manifester level of 13 (which caps at +10). His Dispel check is 1d20+18, rather than the 1d20+13 that you list.

Apparently I read that as it increases the bonus do to caster level to a new maximum. Yeah that changes everything.

[lesser_minion]

I got the impression that lesser_minion was referring to Metafaculty, the ultimate-divination-that-beats-everything-and-this-time-we-mean-it that can explicitly see through a Mindblank.

Actually, I didn't read the description of Shatter Mind Blank properly.

Dispel Psionics does seem a little OP though (the wording on the augment line actually says your bonus increases by +2, not that your maximum bonus from ML increases by +2 - that means that a 10th-level manifester will easily defeat anything at that level instead of having an even chance).

[Baalthazaq]

Mind Blank doesn't work against all divinations, only "information gathering by divination spells or effects." It would thwart a Legend Lore spell, but not True Seeing. Nondetection can stop True Seeing, but there's still a chance that it won't due to the caster level check.

Why not?

"Information gathering" wouldn't include the information that an invisible dude is standing right over there. It wouldn't be information that you gathered through the divination spell true seeing?

[Talic]

Why not?

"Information gathering" wouldn't include the information that an invisible dude is standing right over there. It wouldn't be information that you gathered through the divination spell true seeing?

Could be construed that your information gathering was done with your natural senses (i.e. your eyes, not true seeing), that had been magically enhanced. As your vision is what's gathering information, and the spell isn't directly providing that information (as it would with a spell such as clairvoyance, which specifically creates a sensor that looks down, and you can see what it sees... But it still has to see, or gather information).

Rather, the spell is making your eyes capable of detecting the invisible, which is passive.

True seeing doesn't directly gather information. It only bestows abilities upon the individual that receives it.

[lesser_minion]

Could be construed that your information gathering was done with your natural senses...that had been magically enhanced

I think around my gaming table I'd probably pull out the Ars Magica rulebook and see how that might handle True Seeing before making a decision on whether or not it constitutes magical information gathering (or any other poorly defined grouping). Ars Magica has a pretty awesome set of guidelines which let you design your own spells, so it's a useful fallback if you need to dig into the workings of a spell to make a ruling.

AM actually has a pretty big section on magical senses which suggests that True Seeing would be a divination which provides its information using sight as a medium - so it would normally be blankable.

In any event, I agree with you that True Seeing should bypass a Mind Blank.

Annoyingly, Pathfinder appears to have explicitly ruled that Mind Blank foils See Invisibility, which removes the "using natural senses" justification for making True Seeing beat Mind Blank as well.

[Baalthazaq]

I know I come off a lot as annoying and argumentative. I'm not trying to push here for you to accept that True Seeing should be blocked.

I'm merely trying to get you guys to think more strongly about the definitions firstly, and secondly see that it is subjective. Much of this is written in a way that has no "correct answer" as it depends on one of multiple definitions.

You could easily rule True Seeing is blanked. Any argument that suggests there is only one way of ruling this situation is misguided in my opinion, both interpretations in this case are valid.

Which in turn means it's a DM call.

[elonin]

Thanks for correcting me with the duration of True seeing. At these levels that's of little consequence because any combat is going to be of such limited duration and I did remeber correctly that it's clearly not a day long spell.

One thing that is overlooked at times with true seeing is that it's not a see all spell. It's true that often times a stalker might be seen due to being concealed by invisibility. However if they are hidden using some cover other than invisibility there is no other benefit.

It's also possible that someone could use dispel magic(greater more likely) to drop both of these spells so I don't see the problem.

[elonin]

I know I come off a lot as annoying and argumentative. I'm not trying to push here for you to accept that True Seeing should be blocked.

I'm merely trying to get you guys to think more strongly about the definitions firstly, and secondly see that it is subjective. Much of this is written in a way that has no "correct answer" as it depends on one of multiple definitions.

You could easily rule True Seeing is blanked. Any argument that suggests there is only one way of ruling this situation is misguided in my opinion, both interpretations in this case are valid.

Which in turn means it's a DM call.

If we are discussing scrying I'd rule that it's not mind affecting. Mind blank doesn't prevent will save spells but rather mind affecting. Admitatly alot of spells that force a will save are also mind affecting. 'Course rule 0 still applies.

[Douglas]

The most telling argument imo about Mind Blank vs True Seeing is the wording of Psionic Mind Blank. It is clearly, I think, intended to do exactly the same thing as magical Mind Blank, just edited to include mentions of various psionic things, but it is worded much less ambiguously - it quite explicitly blocks specifically the mind-affecting and scrying descriptors. If a spell has neither of those descriptors, is not attempting to affect or read the mind, and does not specifically mention an interaction with Mind Blank, it is not blocked.