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Thread: [4e] Monk Playtest
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2009-05-10, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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[4e] Monk Playtest
So we've got our Psionic Striker. I'm reading over it now. Got questions?
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2009-05-10, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Psionic? Hmmm.
Are they damage-based like the ranger, or debuff-based like the warlock?Last edited by Colmarr; 2009-05-10 at 11:26 PM.
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2009-05-10, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
The monks focus is: Mobility, Debuff, and Utility.
To understand monks your going to have to learn a new keyword: Full Discipline. I'm going to paste that here:
Full Discipline
Many monk powers have the full discipline keyword.
A full discipline power gives you two or
more actions to choose from, usually an attack
technique and a movement technique. Attack
techniques usually require a standard action,
and movement techniques are options for your
move actions. For a monk, a full discipline power
represents a fighting style, a unique combination
of a move and an attack.
You can use only one full discipline power
per round. However, if you spend an action
point to take an extra action, you can switch to
a different full discipline power. You can use the
techniques of a full discipline power in whatever
order you like, and you can choose to use one of
the techniques and not the other during a particular
round.
The number of times you can use a full
discipline power’s techniques during a round
is determined by the power’s type—at-will or
encounter—and by the actions you have available
that round. For example, you can use the
techniques of an at-will full discipline power as
many times during a round as you like, provided
you have enough of the required actions, but
you can use the techniques of an encounter full
discipline power once during a round
Dragon’s Tail Monk Attack 1
Your hand lashes out like a dragon’s tail, and with the
lightest touch unleashes power that knocks your foe to the
ground.
At-Will ✦ Full Discipline, Implement, Psionic
Attack Technique
Standard Action Melee touch
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1dX + Dexterity modifier damage, and you knock
the target prone.
Movement Technique
Move Action Personal
Effect: You swap places with an adjacent ally or an
adjacent prone enemy
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2009-05-10, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
So the most maligned power name in 4e actually made it into a rulebook, minor amendments notwithstanding?
So, to make sure I understand, if a monk used Dragon's tail for the movement effect, then (barring action points), they are locked into using either the Dragon's tail attack or a basic attack that round?
Sounds interesting. Similar to a stance that be changed from round to round.
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2009-05-11, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
I'm... intrigued. I like what I've seen so far, but the Full Discipline thing is kinda weird.
One thing I did notice is that there's now an Expertise feat for Sorcerers and Monks and others that use a WEAPON as an Implement.
EDIT: Also, if you need me, I'll be in the corner eating my boot because of my prediction of the Monk as a from the "Ki" power source.Last edited by RTGoodman; 2009-05-11 at 12:06 AM.
The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
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2009-05-11, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Yes. Also: Their Abilities are Dex, Wis, Str, with this article being Dex and Wis.
Class Features:
Monastic Tradition (Centered Breath) - Basically like a warlock pact. You get one at-will class feature flurry of blows, and a benefit (+1 fort per tier here).
The effect of this Flurry of blows:
Effect: The target takes damage equal to your Wisdom
modifier. If the target was not a target of the
triggering attack, you can slide the target 1 square to
a square adjacent to you.
The Enchant Magic Item ritual (Player’s Handbook,
page 304) can be used to turn your monk unarmed
strike into a magic weapon. For example, through
that ritual, you could have a +1 flaming monk unarmed
strike.
Monk Weapons
Some of your powers might require you to attack
with a monk weapon. The following weapons count
as monk weapons: unarmed attacks, clubs, daggers,
quarterstaffs, and spears.
There is also a New feat: Focused Expertise. Its Weapon / Implement Expertise, but basically one feat to combine them. So if you were a swordmage, you could take Focused Expertise (Heavy Blade) rather then Weapon and Implement Expertise.
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According to design and development, Ki power source has been offed.
The biggest, and perhaps most obvious, change is that the monk is now psionic. How, you might ask, did that happen? The monk ended up where it did because the ki power source proved untenable and psionics is the next best fit.
...
We also didn't want to simply shove all the classes inspired by Asian cultures into one power source for the sake of bundling them together. Frankly, that strikes me as equivalent to piling every class drawn from Western cultures into the same source. Does it make sense to group witches, knights, jesters, and friars into one power source?
The concept of the monk drawing energy from within was a good match for psionics. When we looked at classes like the shugenja, the wu jen, the ninja, and the samurai, we came to similar conclusions in matching them to other power sources. In some cases, like the samurai, we're more excited about using an approach similar to the Dragon articles on gladiators and assassins.
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2009-05-11, 12:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Which is excellent - it means my second-favorite character ever, a Half-Orc Monk named Krell, can be good in 4E.
It does say that unarmed attacks are monk weapons. Wouldn't that count? Either way, they'll fix it if not. That's what these playtest articles are for, after all.
Yeah, just saw that. Makes sense, I guess. That's a pretty good article in general, too.The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
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• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-05-11, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
The Monk could use any other ability unless it it has the Full Discipline descriptor. If the ability (like Dragon's Tail) is an At Will, then the Monk may use his move action to utilize the movement based ability of the power and a standard action to use the attack portion of the power. For encounter powers, the Monk is forced to choose one or the other (movement or combat).
As for your question, unless the Monk uses an action point, he would be locked into the Dragons Tail.
EDIT: A Monk could also use the following class feature (instead of Dragon Tail)
Centered Flurry of Blows Monk Feature
You strike with incredible speed, your fists a blur as you
follow up your initial attack with another.
At-Will • Implement, Psionic
Free Action (Special) Melee touch
Trigger: You hit with an attack during your turn
Target: One creature
Level 11: One or two creatures
Level 21: Each enemy adjacent to you
Effect: The target takes damage equal to your Wisdom
modifier. If the target was not a target of the
triggering attack, you can slide the target 1 square to
a square adjacent to you.
Special: You can use this power only once per roundLast edited by Elemental_Elf; 2009-05-11 at 12:32 AM.
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2009-05-11, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Double post.
Last edited by Colmarr; 2009-05-11 at 12:36 AM.
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2009-05-11, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
I don't follow this.
Do you mean that Flurry of Blows is like Eldritch Blast (all monks have it), but that Flurries from different schools have different effects.
And the quote you pasted referred to a target not being the target of the triggering attack, which seems nonsensical. Please explain
EDIT: Is this a forum first? Having your question answered by the ninja who got in before you...
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2009-05-11, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-11, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
No, and I've sent them an Email about it. Lets follow the logic here, taking out all the names to make it generic as possible.
<Weapon> has <Stats> and is part of the <WeaponGroup> group. When you make an attack with <OtherWeapon> you may use <Weapon> instead.
<Class> Weapons include <OtherWeapon> and a bunch of other stuff.
Since <Weapon> isn't in the list, <Weapon> isn't a <Class> Weapon. If you make an attack with <OtherWeapon> and use a <Weapon> instead, you are not using a <Class> Weapon.
So lets take this and apply say... Rogue, with <Weapon> being Parrying Dagger, and <OtherWeapon> being Dagger. It would look like:
Parrying Dagger has <Stats> and is part of the Light Blade group. When you make an attack with a Dagger you may use a Parrying Dagger instead. [true: If you hold a parrying dagger and would make an attack, you could use the parrying dagger instead of the dagger]
Rogue Weapons include Dagger and a bunch of other stuff.
Since Parrying Dagger isn't in the list, Parrying Dagger isn't a Rogue Weapon. If you make an attack with Dagger and use a Parrying Dagger instead, you are not using a Rogue Weapon.
This is valid, so now lets try Monk.
Monk Unarmed Strike (MUS) has <Stats> and is part of the Unarmed group. When you make an attack with Unarmed Attack (UA) you may use MUS instead.
Monk Weapons include UA and a bunch of other stuff.
Since MUS isn't in the list, MUS isn't a Monk Weapon. If you make an attack with UA and use a MUS instead, you are not using a MUS Weapon.
---
Also, they forgot level 22 powers.
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2009-05-11, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Did anyone else notice that Monk's Unarmed attacks have Reach?
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2009-05-11, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-11, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-05-11, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
I understand it a bit differently.
--If you use an at-will discipline, you can use each piece of it as many times as you want (take two move actions, or action-point into a second attack).
--If you use an encounter one, each piece can only be used once, but both can be used.Now with half the calories!
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2009-05-11, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
This is how I interpret it as well and it seems the only sensible interpretation (else wise the move actions are almost completely worthless)
Edit: This is also backed up by the fluff text for almost every single encounter power. The fluff clearly describes the power as being both a move and a standard action in the same round. Examples: "You leap into the air and land on your foe’s back. From there, you rain blows on it as it tries to dislodge you.", "You move in a blur, tumbling around a foe, and deliver a sweeping kick with such ferocity that thunderous energy blasts both that foe and its companion.", "You lurch seemingly out of control. Your enemies are bewildered as they try to hit your swaying form, and with a cunning jab, you cause your foe to attack its companion."Last edited by Asbestos; 2009-05-11 at 01:55 AM.
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2009-05-11, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Hmm, I'm not sure on that, most Polearms have Reach 1 and those attack two squares away
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2009-05-11, 02:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
You're not the only one... I think most of us are surprised.
I believe this is the case as well. Could someone post an example of how "reach 1" is used?
EDIT: The PHB describes humans as having a "reach of 1" and also has a chart that lists a variety of numbers below the word "reach," with humans getting a 1 on the chart as well.
A creature with reach 1 can attack adjacent squares only. Confusingly, they apparently included the phrase "reach 1" despite the fact that according to the MM, creatures with an unusual reach will include a reach number. This seems to imply that "reach 1" is an unusual reach, when in fact it is not. Bad idea for Wizards to even include that phrase, it will only generate confusion.Last edited by skywalker; 2009-05-11 at 02:49 AM.
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2009-05-11, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-11, 04:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Upon seeing the Reach description, I suddenly have the urge to shout YOGA FIRE!
Looking nifty gifty here for the Monk. I need to give the article an in-depth look but the last time I had any contact with a monk was second edition so this looks to make him a little more effective :D
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2009-05-11, 05:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Monks....Psionic?
SpoilerRAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Yeah, sure, because indeed martial arts is all about training your mind and not your body, so of course martial power source wasn't fiting for monks.
Also I hardly see a problem with a ki power source. There's several other classes that could have been ki-based. Now we'll never see them. Stupid streamlining.Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-05-11 at 05:05 AM.
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2009-05-11, 05:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Eh; D&D monks are so out-there in terms of their abilities that "martial" doesn't really seem to cut it. Ki makes perfect sense for them, but works perfectly well as a physically-focused application of psionics. Makes more sense for a monk to be psionic than a Soulknife, if you ask me.
Wire-fu "martial arts" are indeed more about training the mind/will/spirit than the body (or about training the latter to focus and unleash the former).
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2009-05-11, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Cough Warlord Cough
If any frontline guy should be a psionic here it would be it. He's the one buffing up people's spirits and completely out of line of the usual martial D&D characters.
I beg to greatly disagree.
First, the body training must be at least as much if not more intense than the mind training. Even stuff like judo that relies little in muscle strenght still demands a lot of practicce for you to be effective with it.
Second, learning how to properly swing a pointy stick or bow also demands a good deal of mind training.
Not to mention the paladin. He's killing people with his strenght of will.
The cleric could also be argued to be doing that.
So, by that line of reasoning, every martial and divine power source guy should actuall be psionic, because they're also thinking and using their inner strenght/will in order to hit harder.
Well, except the barbarian of course.
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2009-05-11, 06:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Am I the only one who doesn't give jack about power sources? Monk's power source could as well be Years Of Vigorously Watching Wuxia Movies and I couldn't care less.
Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
Spoiler
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2009-05-11, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Eh. I don't know the details of his powers, but the concept seems solidly and justifiably Martial to me.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't mean that martial arts should be Psionic rather than Martial. I mean that the Monk is not just a martial artist (and I wish there was a proper martial arts class without the wire-fu trappings of the Monk), and that he can be as well justified as Psionic as Ki. Ki seems to be to be basically "like psionics, but doing awesome stuff with your own body rather than reaching beyond it with your mental focus".
Of course, it'll depend on the actual powers available to the monk whether they seem to deserve some other power source than Martial at all; I'm going off the sort of things 3.5 monks could do.
This is rather silly.
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2009-05-11, 07:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
The monk: More or less melee controller than the Predator Druid or Artful Dodger Rogue?
Seems like more to me, especially since if the monk hits anyone with any power (or a melee basic attack) then someone (or some people) are getting slid.
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2009-05-11, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-11, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-11, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Monk Playtest
Actually power source does mean something since there are a large number of feats that are power source specific.
Anyway, I didn't really like the idea of Ki back in 3.x when Psionics was right there. I mean come on, the monk was teleporting and feather falling while the ninja was moving through other planes of existence. Ki just seemed almost exactly like psionics (in fluff and practice) but 'more Asian'. I think the designers back then were like 'Oh, an Asian-flavored class with supernatural abilities? Clearly it channels Ki'
I can see why they made it so monks can use 'enchant item' to enchant their unarmed attacks (so monks don't get free magic weapons/monks can actually have non-suck magic weapons) but it presents some silliness. For instance having your MUS be a Frost Weapon and headbutting (an example given in the description of MUS) someone with the Frost Weapon Daily... talk about brain freeze.