[4e] Monk Playtest

[Gralamin]

So we've got our Psionic Striker. I'm reading over it now. Got questions?

[Colmarr]

Psionic? Hmmm.

Are they damage-based like the ranger, or debuff-based like the warlock?

[Gralamin]

Psionic? Hmmm.

Are they damage-based like the ranger, or debuff-based like the warlock?

The monks focus is: Mobility, Debuff, and Utility.

To understand monks your going to have to learn a new keyword: Full Discipline. I'm going to paste that here:

Full Discipline
Many monk powers have the full discipline keyword.
A full discipline power gives you two or
more actions to choose from, usually an attack
technique and a movement technique. Attack
techniques usually require a standard action,
and movement techniques are options for your
move actions. For a monk, a full discipline power
represents a fighting style, a unique combination
of a move and an attack.
You can use only one full discipline power
per round. However, if you spend an action
point to take an extra action, you can switch to
a different full discipline power. You can use the
techniques of a full discipline power in whatever
order you like, and you can choose to use one of
the techniques and not the other during a particular
round.
The number of times you can use a full
discipline power’s techniques during a round
is determined by the power’s type—at-will or
encounter—and by the actions you have available
that round. For example, you can use the
techniques of an at-will full discipline power as
many times during a round as you like, provided
you have enough of the required actions, but
you can use the techniques of an encounter full
discipline power once during a round

I'll post a single at-will here to let you guys get an idea of how it looks.

Dragon’s Tail Monk Attack 1
Your hand lashes out like a dragon’s tail, and with the
lightest touch unleashes power that knocks your foe to the
ground.
At-Will ✦ Full Discipline, Implement, Psionic

Attack Technique
Standard Action Melee touch
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1dX + Dexterity modifier damage, and you knock
the target prone.

Movement Technique
Move Action Personal
Effect: You swap places with an adjacent ally or an
adjacent prone enemy

[Colmarr]

Dragon's Tail

So the most maligned power name in 4e actually made it into a rulebook, minor amendments notwithstanding?

So, to make sure I understand, if a monk used Dragon's tail for the movement effect, then (barring action points), they are locked into using either the Dragon's tail attack or a basic attack that round?

Sounds interesting. Similar to a stance that be changed from round to round.

[RTGoodman]

I'm... intrigued. I like what I've seen so far, but the Full Discipline thing is kinda weird.

One thing I did notice is that there's now an Expertise feat for Sorcerers and Monks and others that use a WEAPON as an Implement.

EDIT: Also, if you need me, I'll be in the corner eating my boot because of my prediction of the Monk as a from the "Ki" power source.

[Gralamin]

So the most maligned power name in 4e actually made it into a rulebook, minor amendments notwithstanding?

So, to make sure I understand, if a monk used Dragon's tail for the movement effect, then (barring action points), they are locked into using either the Dragon's tail attack or a basic attack that round?

Sounds interesting. Similar to a stance that be changed from round to round.

Yes. Also: Their Abilities are Dex, Wis, Str, with this article being Dex and Wis.

Class Features:
Monastic Tradition (Centered Breath) - Basically like a warlock pact. You get one at-will class feature flurry of blows, and a benefit (+1 fort per tier here).

The effect of this Flurry of blows:

Effect: The target takes damage equal to your Wisdom
modifier. If the target was not a target of the
triggering attack, you can slide the target 1 square to
a square adjacent to you.

Unarmed Combatant: Monk Unarmed Strike weapon. +3 Prof, 1d8 damage, offhand, unarmed group. Also:

The Enchant Magic Item ritual (Player’s Handbook,
page 304) can be used to turn your monk unarmed
strike into a magic weapon. For example, through
that ritual, you could have a +1 flaming monk unarmed
strike.

Unarmored Defense: Passive bonus to AC in unarmored.

Monk Weapons
Some of your powers might require you to attack
with a monk weapon. The following weapons count
as monk weapons: unarmed attacks, clubs, daggers,
quarterstaffs, and spears.

Monk unarmed strike apparently isn't a monk weapon... I'm guessing thats an error.

There is also a New feat: Focused Expertise. Its Weapon / Implement Expertise, but basically one feat to combine them. So if you were a swordmage, you could take Focused Expertise (Heavy Blade) rather then Weapon and Implement Expertise.

---

According to design and development, Ki power source has been offed.

The biggest, and perhaps most obvious, change is that the monk is now psionic. How, you might ask, did that happen? The monk ended up where it did because the ki power source proved untenable and psionics is the next best fit.

...

We also didn't want to simply shove all the classes inspired by Asian cultures into one power source for the sake of bundling them together. Frankly, that strikes me as equivalent to piling every class drawn from Western cultures into the same source. Does it make sense to group witches, knights, jesters, and friars into one power source?

The concept of the monk drawing energy from within was a good match for psionics. When we looked at classes like the shugenja, the wu jen, the ninja, and the samurai, we came to similar conclusions in matching them to other power sources. In some cases, like the samurai, we're more excited about using an approach similar to the Dragon articles on gladiators and assassins.

[RTGoodman]

Yes. Also: Their Abilities are Dex, Wis, Str, with this article being Dex and Wis.

Which is excellent - it means my second-favorite character ever, a Half-Orc Monk named Krell, can be good in 4E.

Monk unarmed strike apparently isn't a monk weapon... I'm guessing thats an error.

It does say that unarmed attacks are monk weapons. Wouldn't that count? Either way, they'll fix it if not. That's what these playtest articles are for, after all.

According to design and development, Ki power source has been offed.

Yeah, just saw that. Makes sense, I guess. That's a pretty good article in general, too.

[Elemental_Elf]

So, to make sure I understand, if a monk used Dragon's tail for the movement effect, then (barring action points), they are locked into using either the Dragon's tail attack or a basic attack that round?

The Monk could use any other ability unless it it has the Full Discipline descriptor. If the ability (like Dragon's Tail) is an At Will, then the Monk may use his move action to utilize the movement based ability of the power and a standard action to use the attack portion of the power. For encounter powers, the Monk is forced to choose one or the other (movement or combat).

As for your question, unless the Monk uses an action point, he would be locked into the Dragons Tail.

EDIT: A Monk could also use the following class feature (instead of Dragon Tail)

Centered Flurry of Blows Monk Feature
You strike with incredible speed, your fists a blur as you
follow up your initial attack with another.
At-Will • Implement, Psionic
Free Action (Special) Melee touch
Trigger: You hit with an attack during your turn
Target: One creature
Level 11: One or two creatures
Level 21: Each enemy adjacent to you

Effect: The target takes damage equal to your Wisdom
modifier. If the target was not a target of the
triggering attack, you can slide the target 1 square to
a square adjacent to you.

Special: You can use this power only once per round

[Colmarr]

Double post.

[Colmarr]

Monastic Tradition (Centered Breath) - Basically like a warlock pact. You get one at-will class feature flurry of blows, and a benefit (+1 fort per tier here).

I don't follow this.

Do you mean that Flurry of Blows is like Eldritch Blast (all monks have it), but that Flurries from different schools have different effects.

And the quote you pasted referred to a target not being the target of the triggering attack, which seems nonsensical. Please explain

EDIT: Is this a forum first? Having your question answered by the ninja who got in before you...

[Elemental_Elf]

I don't follow this.

Do you mean that Flurry of Blows is like Eldritch Blast (all monks have it), but that Flurries from different schools have different effects.

And the quote you pasted referred to a target not being the target of the triggering attack, which seems nonsensical. Please explain

The Monk's class features are based on the Tradition he chooses. In the playtest we are only given the following:

Class Features
Monks of the Centered Breath tradition gain the Flurry of Blows power [called] centered flurry of blows.

[Gralamin]

It does say that unarmed attacks are monk weapons. Wouldn't that count? Either way, they'll fix it if not. That's what these playtest articles are for, after all.

No, and I've sent them an Email about it. Lets follow the logic here, taking out all the names to make it generic as possible.

<Weapon> has <Stats> and is part of the <WeaponGroup> group. When you make an attack with <OtherWeapon> you may use <Weapon> instead.

<Class> Weapons include <OtherWeapon> and a bunch of other stuff.

Since <Weapon> isn't in the list, <Weapon> isn't a <Class> Weapon. If you make an attack with <OtherWeapon> and use a <Weapon> instead, you are not using a <Class> Weapon.

So lets take this and apply say... Rogue, with <Weapon> being Parrying Dagger, and <OtherWeapon> being Dagger. It would look like:
Parrying Dagger has <Stats> and is part of the Light Blade group. When you make an attack with a Dagger you may use a Parrying Dagger instead. [true: If you hold a parrying dagger and would make an attack, you could use the parrying dagger instead of the dagger]

Rogue Weapons include Dagger and a bunch of other stuff.

Since Parrying Dagger isn't in the list, Parrying Dagger isn't a Rogue Weapon. If you make an attack with Dagger and use a Parrying Dagger instead, you are not using a Rogue Weapon.

This is valid, so now lets try Monk.

Monk Unarmed Strike (MUS) has <Stats> and is part of the Unarmed group. When you make an attack with Unarmed Attack (UA) you may use MUS instead.

Monk Weapons include UA and a bunch of other stuff.

Since MUS isn't in the list, MUS isn't a Monk Weapon. If you make an attack with UA and use a MUS instead, you are not using a MUS Weapon.

---

Also, they forgot level 22 powers.

[NPCMook]

Did anyone else notice that Monk's Unarmed attacks have Reach?

[Gralamin]

Did anyone else notice that Monk's Unarmed attacks have Reach?

Reach 1 is the same as Attacking a square adjacent. Reach 2 is attacking two squares away. Reach 3 is attacking three, etc.

[RTGoodman]

Reach 1 is the same as Attacking a square adjacent. Reach 2 is attacking two squares away. Reach 3 is attacking three, etc.

Yep. Of course, it's not too hard to imagine a few monk disciplines that allow you to make an attack with reach. Fighters have 'em already, I think, at least in Martial Power.

We'll see what they do as far as fixing the unarmed strike thing, too.

[The New Bruceski]

The Monk could use any other ability unless it it has the Full Discipline descriptor. If the ability (like Dragon's Tail) is an At Will, then the Monk may use his move action to utilize the movement based ability of the power and a standard action to use the attack portion of the power. For encounter powers, the Monk is forced to choose one or the other (movement or combat).

I understand it a bit differently.
--If you use an at-will discipline, you can use each piece of it as many times as you want (take two move actions, or action-point into a second attack).
--If you use an encounter one, each piece can only be used once, but both can be used.

[Asbestos]

I understand it a bit differently.
--If you use an at-will discipline, you can use each piece of it as many times as you want (take two move actions, or action-point into a second attack).
--If you use an encounter one, each piece can only be used once, but both can be used.

This is how I interpret it as well and it seems the only sensible interpretation (else wise the move actions are almost completely worthless)

Edit: This is also backed up by the fluff text for almost every single encounter power. The fluff clearly describes the power as being both a move and a standard action in the same round. Examples: "You leap into the air and land on your foe’s back. From there, you rain blows on it as it tries to dislodge you.", "You move in a blur, tumbling around a foe, and deliver a sweeping kick with such ferocity that thunderous energy blasts both that foe and its companion.", "You lurch seemingly out of control. Your enemies are bewildered as they try to hit your swaying form, and with a cunning jab, you cause your foe to attack its companion."

[NPCMook]

Hmm, I'm not sure on that, most Polearms have Reach 1 and those attack two squares away

[skywalker]

EDIT: Also, if you need me, I'll be in the corner eating my boot because of my prediction of the Monk as a from the "Ki" power source.

You're not the only one... I think most of us are surprised.

Hmm, I'm not sure on that, most Polearms have Reach 1 and those attack two squares away

I believe this is the case as well. Could someone post an example of how "reach 1" is used?

EDIT: The PHB describes humans as having a "reach of 1" and also has a chart that lists a variety of numbers below the word "reach," with humans getting a 1 on the chart as well.

A creature with reach 1 can attack adjacent squares only. Confusingly, they apparently included the phrase "reach 1" despite the fact that according to the MM, creatures with an unusual reach will include a reach number. This seems to imply that "reach 1" is an unusual reach, when in fact it is not. Bad idea for Wizards to even include that phrase, it will only generate confusion.

[Tengu_temp]

Hmm, I'm not sure on that, most Polearms have Reach 1 and those attack two squares away

Wrong. They have the "reach" property, no numbers. And it's defined as:

Reach: With a reach weapon, you can attack
enemies that are 2 squares away from you as well as
adjacent enemies, with no attack penalty. You can
still make opportunity attacks only against adjacent
enemies. Likewise, you can flank only an adjacent
enemy.

[Tyrmatt]

Upon seeing the Reach description, I suddenly have the urge to shout YOGA FIRE!
Looking nifty gifty here for the Monk. I need to give the article an in-depth look but the last time I had any contact with a monk was second edition so this looks to make him a little more effective :D

[Oslecamo]

Monks....Psionic?

Spoiler

Show

RAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Yeah, sure, because indeed martial arts is all about training your mind and not your body, so of course martial power source wasn't fiting for monks.

Also I hardly see a problem with a ki power source. There's several other classes that could have been ki-based. Now we'll never see them. Stupid streamlining.

[kamikasei]

Monks....Psionic?

Yeah, sure, because indeed martial arts is all about training your mind and not your body, so of course martial power source wasn't fiting for monks.

Eh; D&D monks are so out-there in terms of their abilities that "martial" doesn't really seem to cut it. Ki makes perfect sense for them, but works perfectly well as a physically-focused application of psionics. Makes more sense for a monk to be psionic than a Soulknife, if you ask me.

Wire-fu "martial arts" are indeed more about training the mind/will/spirit than the body (or about training the latter to focus and unleash the former).

[Oslecamo]

Eh; D&D monks are so out-there in terms of their abilities that "martial" doesn't really seem to cut it. Ki makes perfect sense for them, but works perfectly well as a physically-focused application of psionics. Makes more sense for a monk to be psionic than a Soulknife, if you ask me.

Cough Warlord Cough

If any frontline guy should be a psionic here it would be it. He's the one buffing up people's spirits and completely out of line of the usual martial D&D characters.

Wire-fu "martial arts" are indeed more about training the mind/will/spirit than the body (or about training the latter to focus and unleash the former).

I beg to greatly disagree.

First, the body training must be at least as much if not more intense than the mind training. Even stuff like judo that relies little in muscle strenght still demands a lot of practicce for you to be effective with it.

Second, learning how to properly swing a pointy stick or bow also demands a good deal of mind training.

Not to mention the paladin. He's killing people with his strenght of will.
The cleric could also be argued to be doing that.

So, by that line of reasoning, every martial and divine power source guy should actuall be psionic, because they're also thinking and using their inner strenght/will in order to hit harder.

Well, except the barbarian of course.

[Tengu_temp]

Am I the only one who doesn't give jack about power sources? Monk's power source could as well be Years Of Vigorously Watching Wuxia Movies and I couldn't care less.

[kamikasei]

Cough Warlord Cough

Eh. I don't know the details of his powers, but the concept seems solidly and justifiably Martial to me.

I beg to greatly disagree.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't mean that martial arts should be Psionic rather than Martial. I mean that the Monk is not just a martial artist (and I wish there was a proper martial arts class without the wire-fu trappings of the Monk), and that he can be as well justified as Psionic as Ki. Ki seems to be to be basically "like psionics, but doing awesome stuff with your own body rather than reaching beyond it with your mental focus".

Of course, it'll depend on the actual powers available to the monk whether they seem to deserve some other power source than Martial at all; I'm going off the sort of things 3.5 monks could do.

Not to mention the paladin. He's killing people with his strenght of will.
The cleric could also be argued to be doing that.

So, by that line of reasoning, every martial and divine power source guy should actuall be psionic, because they're also thinking and using their inner strenght/will in order to hit harder.

This is rather silly.

[Asbestos]

The monk: More or less melee controller than the Predator Druid or Artful Dodger Rogue?

Seems like more to me, especially since if the monk hits anyone with any power (or a melee basic attack) then someone (or some people) are getting slid.

[Oslecamo]

Am I the only one who doesn't give jack about power sources? Monk's power source could as well be Years Of Vigorously Watching Wuxia Movies and I couldn't care less.

Hmm, you're kinda right. For all we've seen a class's power source means less than costless material components in 3.X.

Guess I'll just have to ignore it like all the silly deitology and alignment system 4e brought on.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Am I the only one who doesn't give jack about power sources? Monk's power source could as well be Years Of Vigorously Watching Wuxia Movies and I couldn't care less.

They seem completely irrelevant to play. "Ki," especially in the kung fu movie sense, is already nearly identical to "psionics" as a concept.

[Asbestos]

Actually power source does mean something since there are a large number of feats that are power source specific.

Anyway, I didn't really like the idea of Ki back in 3.x when Psionics was right there. I mean come on, the monk was teleporting and feather falling while the ninja was moving through other planes of existence. Ki just seemed almost exactly like psionics (in fluff and practice) but 'more Asian'. I think the designers back then were like 'Oh, an Asian-flavored class with supernatural abilities? Clearly it channels Ki'


I can see why they made it so monks can use 'enchant item' to enchant their unarmed attacks (so monks don't get free magic weapons/monks can actually have non-suck magic weapons) but it presents some silliness. For instance having your MUS be a Frost Weapon and headbutting (an example given in the description of MUS) someone with the Frost Weapon Daily... talk about brain freeze.