Ultimate Magus worth it?

[Raenir Salazar]

I'm not entirely sure what their advantage is, mostly versatility at the expense of higher spelllevels for either class?

[Ovaltine Patrol]

I'm not entirely sure what their advantage is, mostly versatility at the expense of higher spelllevels for either class?

I'm a bit ignorant on the subject here, but could that loss be offset or alleviated by the Practiced Spellcaster feat?

[Eldariel]

I'm not entirely sure what their advantage is, mostly versatility at the expense of higher spelllevels for either class?

The primary draw of the class is Augmented Casting. The ability to mitigate level adjustment of metamagic feats is very powerful and thus very difficult to obtain, and very desirable. Also, Expanded Spell Knowledge is a wonderful ability, adding many spells impossible for the spontaneous side to learn normally to its list.

And Spell Power is just awesome especially if you build a focused Ultimate Magus (one that has all the "lower level"-adjustments applied on one side; Practiced Spellcaster, Krau-sigil Illumian, arcane PrCs with their own progressions and few other ways exist to ensure this; you just need to make the "slower advancement"-side's caster level equal to the faster advancing one's for each of them), allowing you to far exceed the casting capabilities of a normal caster of your level.


But make no mistake, Augmented Casting is the selling point of the class. And the reason it works out (better than Theurges) is because it's easy to apply all the "lower level" advancements on the side you're focusing (generally Wizard).

[Jack_Simth]

I'm not entirely sure what their advantage is, mostly versatility at the expense of higher spelllevels for either class?

Compared to a pure-classed caster? There... pretty much isn't one. However, th the Sorcerer-1/Wizard-4/Ultimate Magus-10 is much better than the Sorcerer-8/Wizard-7. Especially if the Ultimate Magus uses Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) to cut back on the lost Wizard spellcasting levels.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Depends on the build. Straight Sorcerer/Wizard/UM is pretty weak. Beguiler 1/Wizard 3/UM 10 with Practiced Spellcaster on the Beguiler side is pretty darn nifty. Work it right, you're giving up a feat and the ability to PrC for free meta, which is definitely worth it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you go Illumian (Krau) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10 with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, you'll be able to put 10/10 UM spellcasting toward Wizard. This gets 8th level Beguiler spellcasting and 14th level Wizard spellcasting at level 15, sacrificing only one level of Wizard spellcasting with no loss of caster level. With flaws you could even get Versatile Spellcaster and start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM.

[ErrantX]

If you go Illumian (Krau) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10 with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, you'll be able to put 10/10 UM spellcasting toward Wizard. This gets 8th level Beguiler spellcasting and 14th level Wizard spellcasting at level 15, sacrificing only one level of Wizard spellcasting with no loss of caster level. With flaws you could even get Versatile Spellcaster and start out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM.

How does that work? I was considering reading through UM threads because I was thinking of playing one in my friend's upcoming game.

-X

[Sstoopidtallkid]

How does that work? I was considering reading through UM threads because I was thinking of playing one in my friend's upcoming game.

-X

Assuming you're talking about the first part, UM decides which spellcasting class to advance based on which has the higher caster level. Practiced Spellcaster is enough to boost Beguiler above Wizard for the first lost level, and then they're equal at the second meaning you can choose to advance Wizard. But you need another +1 that only applies to one arcane class to keep the proper progression. Illumian works for that, and there may be other methods in other obscure sources, but I can't think of any.

[ErrantX]

Actually I was more wondering on the 2nd half, the Beguiler 1 / Wizard 1 / Master Specialist 3 / UM X thing. How does that work?

-X

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Actually I was more wondering on the 2nd half, the Beguiler 1 / Wizard 1 / Master Specialist 3 / UM X thing. How does that work?

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to sacrifice 2 slots of your highest level for one slot of your highest level+1. Since Beguilers(and Warmages/Dread Necromancers) know their entire spell list automatically, they qualify for PRCs much sooner that way. Then you use Master Specialist to advance Wizard.

[OzymandiasVolt]

Ultimate Magus worth it? Depends. Do you want higher caster level and strong spell flexibility, with enough slots to toss out spells for no reason other than effect? Can you deal with a slightly reduced maximum spell level? Do you want to be RIDICULOUSLY AWESOME? Then you may want to give it a look.

[olentu]

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to sacrifice 2 slots of your highest level for one slot of your highest level+1. Since Beguilers(and Warmages/Dread Necromancers) know their entire spell list automatically, they qualify for PRCs much sooner that way. Then you use Master Specialist to advance Wizard.

One would probably need heighten spell for this to work.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

One would probably need heighten spell for this to work.

As a Sorcerer you need Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster, but a 1st level Beguiler knows his 9th level spells, he just doesn't have any 9th level slots.

[Myrmex]

One would probably need heighten spell for this to work.

Sorcerers, yes. Due to the wording for the way beguilers, etc, know spells- nope. Just versatile spellcaster.

[olentu]

As a Sorcerer you need Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster, but a 1st level Beguiler knows his 9th level spells, he just doesn't have any 9th level slots.

This is debatable since it says that beguilers automatically know all spells of a level when they gain access to that new level of spells so unless that is redundant the beguiler would have to be lacking that knowledge before access to the new level of spells is gained.

And as per versatile spellcaster one can use two slots of a level to cast a spell that one knows that is one level higher.

Now if assuming that the passage about beguilers is not redundant for example a beguiler that can cast only first level spells does not know the spells of second level that are on the list. And so since versatile spellcaster requires that the spell cast must be one that you know a second level spell could not be cast beacause it is not known. Then since a second level spell could not be cast the beguiler would not gain knowledge of second level spells.

However this has just occurred to me. Versatile spellcaster might interact with having two spell lists and thus possibly knowing a spell on one list and not yet having knowledge of it on another. However this opens up the question of what gain access to a new level of spells means and if it works across different spellcasting classes.

[TheOOB]

Ultimate Magus worth it? Depends. Do you want higher caster level and strong spell flexibility, with enough slots to toss out spells for no reason other than effect? Can you deal with a slightly reduced maximum spell level? Do you want to be RIDICULOUSLY AWESOME? Then you may want to give it a look.

It's an awful lot of effort, I prefer the good old days where wizards became god with initiate of the sevenfold veil and fatespinner, possibly with a little archmage for flavor.

[Fishy]

Plus there's Master Spellthief and getting a caster level in the 40s, which is always fun, if nothing else.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list."

"You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher."

If it didn't include a spell you know it would inadvertently allow any spontaneous caster to access every spell list in the game, this was not included as a condition of being able to use the feat. A Sorcerer with Heighten Spell can spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a 1st level spell heightened to 2nd level, even though he does not know any spells that are one level higher than the spell slots he's spending. Yet this use is possible according to WotC. Having this feat, and having two 1st level spell slots, is enough to give you access to 2nd level spells. Having access to 2nd level spells, and being capable of casting 2nd level spells, are two completely different things. Having access via this feat gives a beguiler knowledge of all 2nd level spells on his list, which then allows him to cast 2nd level spells. For a sorcerer, having access to 2nd level spells doesn't mean anything with regards to his spells known, so it does not give him the ability to cast 2nd level spells unless he has heighten spell.

That is a nice catch on the wording though, since you technically could cast a wizard spell you know using this feat with beguiler spell slots.

[olentu]

"When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list."

"You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher."

If it didn't include a spell you know it would inadvertently allow any spontaneous caster to access every spell list in the game, this was not included as a condition of being able to use the feat. A Sorcerer with Heighten Spell can spend two 1st level spell slots to cast a 1st level spell heightened to 2nd level, even though he does not know any spells that are one level higher than the spell slots he's spending. Yet this use is possible according to WotC. Having this feat, and having two 1st level spell slots, is enough to give you access to 2nd level spells. Having access to 2nd level spells, and being capable of casting 2nd level spells, are two completely different things. Having access via this feat gives a beguiler knowledge of all 2nd level spells on his list, which then allows him to cast 2nd level spells. For a sorcerer, having access to 2nd level spells doesn't mean anything with regards to his spells known, so it does not give him the ability to cast 2nd level spells unless he has heighten spell.

That is a nice catch on the wording though, since you technically could cast a wizard spell you know using this feat with beguiler spell slots.

The sage and the FAQ are not the rules. I so dismiss the argument that a single class beguiler with only the ability to cast first level spells outside of versatile spellcaster would be able to cast second level spells with versatile spellcaster as not legal according to the rules unless actual rules evidence can be presented.

However since I can not see any prohibition for a wizard learning and scribing a spell of higher level then one could cast it is possible that a beguiler 1/wizard 1 with versatile spellcaster could cast second level spells. So after consideration of the specific case of a beguiler 1/wizard 1 trying to enter master specialist I withdraw my original supposition for this specific case assuming that the wizard learns a second level spell. Of course if anyone can give evidence counter to my reading of the wizard spell learning mechanics I would have to revert to my original position as I have not done an in depth study of the wizard spell learning mechanics.

But in general I hold to my position about the use of versatile spellcaster.

Edit: Actually considering the meaning of the word use it might be possible to use wizard spell slots as well as beguiler spell slots to power versatile spellcaster. But a more in depth consideration of that term would have to be undertaken.

[MagMagus]

Totally worth it!

Wait, what are we talking about?

[Paul H]

Hi

Ultimate Magus is my alternate character for Living Planar campaign.

It's a Grey Elf Beguiler 2/Wizard 3/UM 9.

Int is primary spellcasting stat for both Beguiler/Wizard. Took Sudden Extend as my qualifying feat, then Sudden Empower & Sudden Widen as my bonus feats.

Can use cantrip slots to 'power' up my spells with metamagic (Sudden spells don't increase casting time/spell level, so only require level '0' spells for class abilities).

Ended up with spells of a Beguiler 10 (CL 17 due to Practiced Spell Caster, Arcane Might +3), Wizard 11 (CL 14 - Arcane Might +3). Bought ring Wizardry I for extra 10 1st Lvl spells.

Cheers
Paul H

[olentu]

Well after being sidetracked into the specific workings of versatile spellcaster and its interactions I had forgotten to post one situation where would be rather worth it to take the class.

If I am remembering correctly one could technically qualify for ultimate magus using a single class wizard with the spontaneous divination alternative class feature from complete champion. Now since this is a class feature it is reasonable to say that the wizard in question is both a spontaneous and prepared caster since the wizard's class features allow him to do both. Now with this one could get all 17 levels of spellcasting applied to wizard.

Of course I am doing this mostly from memory and so I might be misremembering what the idea was, but there it is.

[Brock Samson]

What about when someone takes a Bloodline that gives them a specific spell each level? That way they'd already *know* ONE spell they'd be getting next level, would that possibly work?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If it automatically adds those spells to your spells known upon taking the feat, then yes that would work too.

[olentu]

What about when someone takes a Bloodline that gives them a specific spell each level? That way they'd already *know* ONE spell they'd be getting next level, would that possibly work?

Well without reading the text I can not say, but it might work. Since I can only recall the bloodlines from unearthed arcana and I do not think they give spells known I am probably not thinking of the same ones as you. So I am wondering which book you are talking about here.

[ZeroNumerous]

A better question would be: When is Ultimate Magus not worth it? Answer: Only when you're intentionally super-optimizing to the level of a God-type wizard.

For the cost of a single feat and a single spellcaster level(along with some skill points which you were going to spend in those skills anyway) you gain an entire list of 4th level spells to screw around with. So basically you trade one caster level for adding the capabilities of a half-caster to your already full caster. And since Magic Wins D&D there basically is no downside. My personal favorite is Warmage 1/Wizard 4/UM X, but your mileage my vary.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

According to the Crystalkeep versions (page 112-115), the inner planes and outer planes bloodline feats automatically add the listed spells to your spells known. The drawbacks of some are a bit harsh, so the necromantic bloodline would probably be your best choice.

You still need to take two flaws and use every feat available to qualify for both master specialist and ultimate magus, so there's no room for a bloodline feat in the first place. Plus you need to have or be able to summon a familiar to take a bloodline feat, and you'll want to trade your wizard familiar for a more useful variant class feature from PH2 or UA. Hopefully your DM will rule in favor of versatile spellcaster granting you the next level of beguiler spells known, otherwise just add a 2nd level spell to your wizard spellbook early and spend beguiler spell slots to cast that to qualify. It should only cost you 300 gold to do so: 50 gp per spell level to copy it from someone else's book, and 100 gp per page for two pages, which you should be able to afford since 2nd level WBL is 900 gold.

[Swooper]

Is there any other way to get 10/10 wizard progression out of UM than being an Illumian with the Krau sigil? Because I can't think of any CL booster that isn't either specific to a school/subtype or temporary, except of course Practiced Spellcaster which is needed to get to 9/10 wizard casting...

[olentu]

Ok so this is dragon stuff and that explains why I could not remember them. So from the crystal keep versions I would agree that all of the ones that add spells to your spells known list would work. But in any case the wizard spells known thing only costs gold and so is probably a better choice.

[appending_doom]

Is there any other way to get 10/10 wizard progression out of UM than being an Illumian with the Krau sigil? Because I can't think of any CL booster that isn't either specific to a school/subtype or temporary, except of course Practiced Spellcaster which is needed to get to 9/10 wizard casting...

Kobold. They can take the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to gain +1 sorcerer spellcasting. Thus, at 6th level, they have a sorcerer CL of 6 (with 2nd-level casting capabilities).

However, Illumian is still a pretty nifty choice, IMO. With 2 sigils, you gain back most of the CL drops you experience in UM. The Enhanced Sigil feat boosts you again so that UM doesn't actually reduce your sorc (or whatever) caster level.