Fix for Cleric?

[Dhavaer]

Wizards can be replaced with Wu Jen, and Sorcerers can be made to use their list.
Druids can be made to use the shapeshift variant.

Is there a similar quik 'n ezy fix to unbrokenate Clerics?

[grautry]

What type of Cleric?

CoDzilla? Replace them with Crusaders or for a worse nerf, Paladins.
Caster? Replacing them with a Favored Soul knocks them down a notch, but they're still plenty powerful.

Also, don't allow Nightsticks or DMM altogether.

[Farlion]

Find players that aren't totally into powergaming and actually want to roleplay?

Cheers,
Farlion

[Fan]

Find players that aren't totally into powergaming and actually want to roleplay?

Cheers,
Farlion

Again with the stormwind fallacy!
A character who is optimized does NOT mean a character that does not want to role play.

[kamikasei]

Player restraint;
disallowing DMM/nightstick abuse (not necessarily disallowing either thing all together);
and nerfing the niche-stomper spells like Righteous Might.

Replacing core Cleric with the cloistered cleric variant might help, too. It depends on what exactly they're doing that's causing you a problem; I'm assuming you're thinking of the buff-and-brutalize approach.

[Eldan]

Well, for me, giving them d6 HD, only light armour and simple weapons for all except war domain clerics helped. I.e. pretty much the cloistered cleric approach. With some buffs, they can still go frontline in an emergency, but they usually think about it a little longer since they are just a little squishier usually.

[Starscream]

I once had good results with a paladin who simply used the cleric spell list. Much better than a standard paladin, but not nearly as powerful as a standard cleric due to the lack of higher level spells.

[Farlion]

A character who is optimized does NOT mean a character that does not want to role play.

Agreed, but he's looking for a "less powerful" variant of a cleric if I understood correctly. So instead of replacing the class, just don't play it that broken.

Clerics are only broken, if the player decides to use these special combinations and the game is only played by RAW.

Play a full healer cleric for instance. Buff others, not yourself. The fighter will love it, whoever else you buff also and you won't be brokenly good.

Cheers,
Farlion

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with Farlion about how easy they are to fix. Another option if you wanted less tough Clerics is the Archivist, but they can be seen as broken due to pretty much getting access to any spell in the game thanks to Cleric Domains (which wouldn't be an issue if Clerics were banned), and less common Divine casters like Shugenjas: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...051007a&page=3 .

[Kaiyanwang]

For fix you mean?

If you mean Clerics do too many things, first and foremost split them between "heavy" (core cleirc) and "ligh" (cloistered cleric from UA).

Then assign domains regaridng the havyness and lightness of the cleric.

Finally, split the spell list in groups, in a way that flavour o mechanically wise is consistent but doable.

You can improve this with ACFs.

Of course there will be common ground.. it's likely that most of them will have the healing spells.

If you are talking about CoDzilla, ban things like nightstick - or ban divine metamagic at all.

[Yuki Akuma]

Archivists can also get pretty bad thanks to adepts, thanks to those underpowered cleric wannabes getting some spells clerics don't, and some that they do at lower levels.

[Tempest Fennac]

I forgot about those (and Paladins and Rangers for that matter). Admittedly, I tend to ignore Adepts unless I want an NPC expert to have some magic skills (fluff-wise, an Adept can be handled with a low-level Cleric or Druid in my view). Ironically, it almost seems like Adepts were used as a basis for Archivists looking at their spell list.

[Zeful]

The best way to "fix" any class is to punish outrageous optimization. Something along the lines of "I don't mind optimization, but if you go to far you will attract the attention of people who don't like you far sooner than normal. They will be overwhelmingly more powerful when they decide to "visit" you, because you are a threat to them."

[Leon]

An Archivist is only insanely powerful if let run unchecked, a good DM isn't going to let you blithely grab every spell that's not nailed down.


I'm with Farlion on this
And i have found such a good group - in actuality some of them have seen the rampant "optimizing" that can happen with 3.5 and put a Heavy Clamp on such things, which can make it difficult for someone such as me who likes to try out different idea's such as Class combination's or races


There is a big difference between making a good strong character and optimizing - we have upto 8 people playing in the group and 7 of them have good strong PCs - the last one is currently (apparently) dis-satisfied with the game since his Paladin did a Iceberg impersonation and is prone to do random stupid things

We have:(all at Lvl 7) Fighter, Monk, Pyromaniac Evoker, Healing Cleric, Paladin, Dragonheart Adept Sorcerer, Rogue and Archivist/Barbarian
The Duskblade is expected to have a very short lifespan soon (Has split with the party in a Big way - we are all in the Alps, he's gone looking for trouble in Egypt)

In another game i have a Druid who despite not having wildshape or a Pet is still a very potent force - he fights with a Glaive and unarmed, same game has a Psion with a hefty LA, a Soul Knife, a Healing Cleric and a Ranger who is more a guiding force for his pet than anything else - very solid group

None of these PCs mentioned are Optimized, they are just well created and Us the players work well as a team

[grautry]

Agreed, but he's looking for a "less powerful" variant of a cleric if I understood correctly. So instead of replacing the class, just don't play it that broken.

Clerics are only broken, if the player decides to use these special combinations and the game is only played by RAW.

But that's an extremely fine line.

For example, is Divine Power okay? Is Extended Divine Power okay? Is Persisted Divine Power okay(epic slot, but can be done)? Is DMM'ed Divine Power okay?

What about DMM? Is DMM Quicken broken? What about if you add a Nightstick? What if you add five? Is even a single DMM Persist broken? Two? Three?

Where do you draw the line?

Play a full healer cleric for instance. Buff others, not yourself. The fighter will love it, whoever else you buff also and you won't be brokenly good.

Here's the problem. Clerics are, by class requirements, wise. They might not be book-smart, but they're certainly able to reason enough to see what's effective in combat.

If you're playing a Cleric that doesn't do whatever is the most effective, then you're roleplaying badly however ironic that is. You're playing a character that's consciously choosing to make himself sub-optimal in life and death situations. I mean really, how can you justify that?

The only way I can think of the top of my had to make that fly in-character is if your character is suicidal or has a death-wish of some kind.

[Faleldir]

1. Restrict what kinds of spells they can use on themselves.
2. Make them learn their spells like an arcane caster.
3. As an extreme nerf, randomly determine which spells their god feels like letting them prepare that day.

[Riffington]

If you're playing a Cleric that doesn't do whatever is the most effective, then you're roleplaying badly however ironic that is. You're playing a character that's consciously choosing to make himself sub-optimal in life and death situations. I mean really, how can you justify that?

Umm, real life? Chaplains - even those likely to find themselves in combat - don't really tend to study jujitsu (or other arts dedicated to winning fights even if it cripples a man). Priests who entered combat seem to have dedicated themselves more to saving men's souls or inspiring troops than to maximizing their chances of winning wars. Heck, the majority of soldiers smoke - basic optimization theory would tell them to stop, but they don't.

anyway.
The simplist fix: Ban wands of cure light wounds or lesser vigor.

In basic groups (people who play like the designers intended), a cleric plays two roles. She stands up front for justice and smites infidels with her mace. She also runs to the aid of fallen friends and heals them.
Played like this, the cleric is powerful and necessary. Some think she is also boring; that aspect depends. But a lot of that power is stuff that every group needs anyway.

But in groups who have figured out that noncombat healing is done more efficiently by wands (and that combat healing is rarely useful if resurrection magics are easily available), the cleric loses most of her healing role. That frees her to use her spells to steal the show.

Besides: potions are just cooler than wands.

[Yuki Akuma]

Umm, real life? Chaplains - even those likely to find themselves in combat - don't really tend to study jujitsu (or other arts dedicated to winning fights even if it cripples a man). Priests who entered combat seem to have dedicated themselves more to saving men's souls or inspiring troops than to maximizing their chances of winning wars. Heck, the majority of soldiers smoke - basic optimization theory would tell them to stop, but they don't.

D&D is not real life.

Clerics in D&D are trained holy warriors who also happen to be ordained priests, not the other way around!

[potatocubed]

The houserule I always enforce is that you can't use metamagic - even mitigated metamagic, like with DMM - to boost a spell's level to higher than you can normally cast. Problem solved.

For a far more in-depth solution, every deity should have their own cleric class, covering proficiencies, spell lists, skills, skill points, and so on. (See Faiths and Avatars from AD&D to see what I mean.) But 'quick and easy', that is not.

[Farlion]

For example, is Divine Power okay? Is Extended Divine Power okay? Is Persisted Divine Power okay(epic slot, but can be done)? Is DMM'ed Divine Power okay?

What about DMM? Is DMM Quicken broken? What about if you add a Nightstick? What if you add five? Is even a single DMM Persist broken? Two? Three?

Where do you draw the line?

As DM I draw the line. Period. All of my players either don't care about optimizing their character or come to me if they think they found something that might break game balance in some way or another. Then we discuss if this would actually destroy the campaign or if it just allows me to challenge them more. No rule, no line, just my decision as DM of that specific camaign.

Here's the problem. Clerics are, by class requirements, wise. They might not be book-smart, but they're certainly able to reason enough to see what's effective in combat.

If you're playing a Cleric that doesn't do whatever is the most effective, then you're roleplaying badly however ironic that is. You're playing a character that's consciously choosing to make himself sub-optimal in life and death situations. I mean really, how can you justify that?

Puh, I totally disagree, but if that is what you think a cleric is, fine with me.

Here my definition of a cleric:
A cleric is a person who lives up to the ideals of his or her diety. He craves to internalize the teachings of his god and tries to carry these along his life path.

The cleric you describe above, might me one of a martial diety, but theres others out there. And even martial clerics might notice, that giving the fighter a buff is more effective, that taking it himself. The clerics sole purpose is not fighting, but keeping up his or her dieties ideals (this can be through combat, but it doesn't have to be).

Cheers,
Farlion

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Cloistered Cleric and ban many of the self-only buffs. Now he can't go Zilla, but the party can get his boost.

[Saph]

For example, is Divine Power okay? Is Extended Divine Power okay? Is Persisted Divine Power okay(epic slot, but can be done)? Is DMM'ed Divine Power okay?

Yes, yes, no, no, would be my answers.

Divine Power is fine as long as the PC is spending an action to use it (because in 3.5, losing a round of actions is a major penalty).

What about DMM? Is DMM Quicken broken? What about if you add a Nightstick? What if you add five? Is even a single DMM Persist broken? Two? Three?

No, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

At least in my experience. I've never seen a good reason to allow DMM, much less DMM Persist. It's one of the cheesiest things out there.

Deciding where to draw the line might be a matter of preference, but it's not difficult.

- Saph

[Goatman_Ted]

No single change is going to stop a player who wants to break the game from doing so.

But I'd drop Divine Metamagic the same way I would any other metamagic cost-reducer in a lower powered game.

Not because I don't want a perpetually Divine Favored, Divine Powered, Righteous Mighted Cleric outshining the Fighter in melee (he probably won't), but because I don't want the Cleric using real metamagic on actually scary spells.

[Epinephrine]

Yes, yes, no, no, would be my answers.

Only one I disagree with is the first "no" there. Epic slot? Sure. that's what epic spells are like. That's a 10th level slot, right? And can still be dispelled (and if you are epic, you'll be facing dispells of various types)

DMM though is broken, as is metamagic song, or other ways to get big metamagic effects without using the appropriate spell level. Persistent is a huge power, which is why it has a punishing +6 spell level cost. You can do a lot with a 9th level spell slot; gaining a 3rd level buff all day (or 4th level, if you have easy metamagic as well - I'm iffy on easy metamagic) is nice, but I don't think it's necessarily broken. So many ways to remove the buff anyway, if that's what you want your 9th level spell slot for, fine.

[Riffington]

D&D is not real life.

Clerics in D&D are trained holy warriors who also happen to be ordained priests, not the other way around!

If that were true, their training would encompass the two weeks or so it takes to learn how to use a sword.

Besides, that doesn't change the basic fact that people don't optimize in real life. Our real life warrior heroes waste their money inhaling Con poisons. Our real life scientists imbibe Int toxins - and the most brilliant one I can think of spent a great deal of time dabbling in lockpicking.

It is not bad roleplaying for a cleric to use her perceived strength (healing) in combat rather than the "true" strengths that players have discovered based on RAW and statistics.

[Justin B.]

Clerics are powerful. That's the nature of the beast. Honestly, would you expect it to be any other way? These are the avatars of Gods walking the Earth, rightly they should be the most powerful beings on the Material Plane if they've culled enough favor from their deity.

This is balanced by the overwhelming DM control this allows. Your DM is your God for all intents and purposes. He can choose not to give you something he feels is upsetting the game. The easy way to avoid this is to buff other party members. Simple, effective, and shows that you're nto actively trying to steal the game for yourself.

[Yuki Akuma]

If that were true, their training would encompass the two weeks or so it takes to learn how to use a sword.

Besides, that doesn't change the basic fact that people don't optimize in real life. Our real life warrior heroes waste their money inhaling Con poisons. Our real life scientists imbibe Int toxins - and the most brilliant one I can think of spent a great deal of time dabbling in lockpicking.

It is not bad roleplaying for a cleric to use her perceived strength (healing) in combat rather than the "true" strengths that players have discovered based on RAW and statistics.

So being trained to use heavy armour doesn't make someone a warrior? What?

Not all warriors use swords. In fact, in 'real life' combat you'd probably use a mace - swords are not that good if your opponent is wearing anything tougher than, say, cloth.

[Tengu_temp]

Limiting clerics to healbotting is a bad, bad idea, because for most people being a healbot who does nothing else but throws Cure X Wounds around is freakin' boring. I'd say that using cloistered clerics and banning DMM is probably the best idea - and if someone wants to play a more militant religion-oriented character, offer them to play a crusader.

[oxybe]

not all chaplains are clerics, and not all clerics are chaplains.

a level 18 NPC aristocrat with a maxed out religion skill, a high int and skill focus (religion), as well as a high diplomacy/bluff/intimidate & sense motive could very well be the highest authority in the church for whatever reason.

on the flipside, the peasant who is blessed by St.Cuthbert for his diligent and valiant protection of his land and those on it could very well be a cleric. guy might not know exactly why he can heal wounds, but he's got his convictions and he's sticking to them.

D&D classes tend to vary between too focused or not focused enough when it comes to fluff, and over the years i've come to just ditch all premade fluff if i can and work with what i have to make the character i want.

the generic D&D cleric & paladins though? the cleric is the hand of the deity while the paladin is the sword, both trained to endure the hardships that are to come when the need to fight the forces of [insert thing your deity dislikes] or protect the [insert thing your deity likes]. the cleric focuses more on drawing forth and spreading the blessings of the deity while the paladin focuses on protecting those who would harm the faithful.

my opinions on if you want to make the cleric less borked?

talk with your players, set expectations and go through the spell list and find the problematic spells, then remove them. also, only allow material after looking it over.

[Telonius]

My quick mechanical fix to Clerics: No multiple Nightsticks, Divine Power is removed from the normal Cleric list (though it's still on the War Domain list), DMM allows you to reduce the metamagic cost by no more than (Cleric Level/4).