Help for my sister's character

[kyuubigan]

My sister is joining our group, and she want's to play an elven Swashbuckler that will multiclass into Rogue, then take the Mountebank prestige class. We are starting at level 2 with maximum hit points. Her rolls were pretty good, and we already figured out her stats:

Str-10
Dex-20 (18 rolled)
Con-11 (13 rolled)
Int- 14
Wis-10
Cha-12

We've also got her first few feats figured out:

1-Combat Expertise
3-Improved Feint
6-Deceitful (For Mountebank)
9-Daring Outlaw

And her skills have all been worked out. Just need some suggestions for a few feats, items, or other things that will be of benefit for her. You can probably tell by the feat progression at role in combat she will be..

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Unless you can get Feinting down to a Swift or Free action, it's not worth it. Burning your ability to full-attack to make the opponent flat-footed is generally not a good trade, since Flanking is much easier to get and still activates SA.

[lsfreak]

I'd suggest a 1-level dip into Swordsage (5th level gets you 2nd-level maneuvers), grabbing Island of Blades to allow flanking more often. Then grab the Shadow Blade feat to allow Dex to damage for shortswords or daggers (I'd see no problem in allowing similar weapons as well). A second level for Assassin's Stance can be good as well. Make sure to pick up Cloak of Deception (2nd level maneuver, greater invisibility for 1 round) as well.

I'll agree with not getting Improved Feint, unless you're willing to houserule that feinting can be done as a swift action. I suppose with only one weapon, Improved Feint as-is is still decent until fairly high levels, but you'd still be able to sneak attack better with two-weapon fighting and related feats than one-weapon with improved feint.

[Radar]

With this stats, wouldn't Finese Weapon be a good thing to take?

[Rhiannon87]

I agree with Radar and the other posters. Drop Improved feint (feint usually isn't worth it unless you go into invisible blade) and take Weapon Finesse. That'll significantly up her attack rolls.

[kyuubigan]

Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat that Swashbuckler's get at 1st level.

[lsfreak]

Oh, one other thing: if she picks up one of the shadow blade stances, she can get shadow hand on her weapon for +3 to hit as long as she's in the stance. One of the best weapon enhancements you can get.

[Swooper]

Oh, one other thing: if she picks up one of the shadow blade stances, she can get shadow hand on her weapon for +3 to hit as long as she's in the stance. One of the best weapon enhancements you can get.

Just remember that discipline weapons don't replace the minimum +1 enhancement you need to put other enhancements on weapons. Just noting this because I've seen lots of people say it does, but it doesn't.

[kyuubigan]

We have been encouraged by our DM to stick to the core books and the complete series. In any case, are there any feats that would improve her flanking bonus?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

We have been encouraged by our DM to stick to the core books and the complete series. In any case, are there any feats that would improve her flanking bonus?

Vexing Flanker+ Adaptable Flanker from PhB II. Vexing Flanker gives you +4 on attack rolls while flanking, Adaptable Flanker (prerequsite: Vexing, Combat Reflexes, BAB +4) lets you flank easier.

I will also suggest she invest in the skill Use Magic Device, and to pick up wands of Golembane and Gravebane respectively so she can effectively damage the most common sorts of creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage.

If she wants real damage output, I suggest going a one-level dip in Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champions, and go duo-wield. Full sneak attack progression hurts. However, this may be a bit too min-max-ey for her.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As has already been said, Improved Feint is not a feat worth taking, and Swordsage is a superb alternative to Rogue considering the feat Shadow Blade. I also wouldn't recommend Daring Outlaw, since it only gives +1d6 sneak attack and a class feature that copies the Dodge feat unless you plan on taking more Swashbuckler levels. Instead, take the Arcane Stunt variant from Complete Mage and pick Spider Climb, it's well worth the trade. Start out Swordsage 1/ Swashbuckler 1, the extra skill points will be well worth it. Go Swordsage 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Mountebank 10, and then whatever else you want to take. For feats get Shadow Blade (1), Two-Weapon Fighting (3), Deceitful (6), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (9), Trickery Devotion (12), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), and whatever else you think you'd need if you reach 18. I'd get more Swordsage levels after Mountebank, or maybe just one more Swordsage and the rest Swashbuckler until 20 so you'll have a +16 BAB if the game could go epic. With Shadow Blade you may as well switch to Grey Elf in the Monster Manual to get +2 Int for -2 Str.

For your maneuvers and stances, here's what I'd do:
1. Swordsage 1: Clinging Shadow Strike, Burning Blade, Distracting Ember, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Counter Charge; Island of Blades
2. Swashbuckler 1
3. Swashbuckler 2
4. Swordsage 2: Shadow Jaunt; Flame's Blessing
5. Swashbuckler 3
6. Swordsage 3: Cloak of Deception
7-16. Mountebank 1-10
either
17. Swashbuckler 4
18. Swordsage 4: Dancing Mongoose, switch Clinging Shadow Strike for Stalker in the Night
19-20: Swashbuckler 5-6
or
17. Swordsage 4: Dancing Mongoose, switch Clinging Shadow Strike for Shadow Strider
18. Swordsage 5: Stalker in the Night; Hearing the Air
19. Swordsage 6: Pouncing Charge, switch Shadow Jaunt for Shadow Noose
20. Swordsage 7: Shadow Blink

Get two Swords of Subtlety asap, and if possible upgrade them further with properties like Speed and Wounding. A Hat of Disguise is very inexpensive and extremely useful, and if possible get some Night Sticks for more uses of Trickery Devotion.

Edit: Started before he said it's just Core and Completes, but it's still a useful build so I'll leave it up.

[kyuubigan]

Vexing Flanker+ Adaptable Flanker from PhB II. Vexing Flanker gives you +4 on attack rolls while flanking, Adaptable Flanker (prerequsite: Vexing, Combat Reflexes, BAB +4) lets you flank easier.

Oh, duh. Yeah. Thanks. But a feat that interested me is Craven from Champions of Ruin.

We have been encouraged by our DM to stick to the core books and the complete series. In any case, are there any feats that would improve her flanking bonus?

This is not a strict requirement, though he likes to have all the rules in front of him so he knows exactly what our characters can do.

Alright. So far so good. Anything else?\

p.s what does the Shadow Blade do, sound's interesting.

[Mad Wizard]

Shadow Blade lets you apply your dex bonus to damage instead of your str bonus when you're using a Shadow Hand weapon.

[herrhauptmann]

Here's an older thread I bookmarked last time I was trying to put together a thief.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102744

Instead of wands of scarabbane and golembane and the UMD skill, I recommend weapon crystals. Greater Truedeath and Demolition will allow her to sneak attack and critical both undead and constructs. Still SOL on oozes and plants though.
Though the feat dragonfire strike might bypass that instead (Some DMs say you have to be able to deal SA before you can convert it to energy damage).

If she's planning on sticking with feinting and doing some tumble fighting, Acrobatic strike (phb2) gives a bonus to feint somebody you just cartwheeled around.
Also I recommend looking at some Skill Tricks from Complete Rogue. The freestand one is a great way to cancel out certain lockdown builds.

What weapon is your sister going to use? Rapier, kukri? (If chain or whip, I suggest Vae School from Drow of Underdark)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh, duh. Yeah. Thanks. But a feat that interested me is Craven from Champions of Ruin.

Not worth it for your build. It is based on Rogue levels, of which you only have three (to qualify for Daring Outlaw so you can get the full BAB of Swashbuckler and SA progression of Rogue). In return, your save vs fear effects is screwed.

This is not a strict requirement, though he likes to have all the rules in front of him so he knows exactly what our characters can do.

Alright. So far so good. Anything else?\

p.s what does the Shadow Blade do, sound's interesting.

Okay, if you CAN, here's what you do:

Feats: Martial Maneuver (get one shadow blade maneuver), Martial Stance (get Island of Blades stance), Shadow Blade (use Dex for damage while in the stance, i.e. always).

Island of Blades: You flank whenever an ally is adjacent to opponent, even if not in flanking position.

for the maneuver, I suggest Shadow Blade Technique.

Once per encounter, you may declare that you are using Shadow Blade Technique as a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. When you do so, you make two attack rolls. If the higher of the two rolls hits your target, then you successfully hit him. If the lower of the two rolls also hits, you also deal an additional 1d6 cold damage.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Not worth it for your build. It is based on Rogue levels, of which you only have three (to qualify for Daring Outlaw so you can get the full BAB of Swashbuckler and SA progression of Rogue). In return, your save vs fear effects is screwed.

...What? No it doesnt! Its based off your character level!

[herrhauptmann]

Not worth it for your build. It is based on Rogue levels, of which you only have three (to qualify for Daring Outlaw so you can get the full BAB of Swashbuckler and SA progression of Rogue). In return, your save vs fear effects is screwed.

Craven goes off of character level not rogue level, unless it's been errata'd.

You take a -2 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. however when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level.

edit: Damn you ninjas!

[kyuubigan]

The negative to fear saves that comes with Craven won't be a problem because of my bard, plus I've read the damage multiplies on a critical hit.

[Curmudgeon]

The negative to fear saves that comes with Craven won't be a problem because of my bard, plus I've read the damage multiplies on a critical hit.

That's correct; the Craven bonus damage is a constant, not based on dice, so it's multiplied on a critical sneak attack.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

A Rogue's best choice for weapon is a keen rapier because of its 15-20 critical threat range.