[3.5] Maximum Sneak Attack Damage

[unosarta]

just the other day, I was looking over the assassin prestige class, and I looked at rogue to check for requirements. and when I looked and compared the assassin sneak attack progression for both classes, I noticed that if you only go partway into the class, you can get more sneak attack damage than if you went pure one way or the other [such as rogue5/assassin5's 6d6 rather than a pure rogue10's 5d6].

does anyone know any other full sneak attack progression besides Invisible Blade, Assassin, and Slayer of Domiel? I want to see how far this precision damage can take me.

thanks for any help.

[Faleldir]

One level of Ronin gives you 1d6 Sneak Attack for one feat and a few lines of backstory.

[unosarta]

One level of Ronin gives you 1d6 Sneak Attack for one feat and a few lines of backstory.

oh! i forgot about all of the classes that give you not full SA progression, but +1d6 at first level. thank you!

[UserClone]

A level of Spellthief. Also, the Craven feat gives you +CL to your sneak attack damage.

[unosarta]

A level of Spellthief. Also, the Craven feat gives you +CL to your sneak attack damage.

so now, there is 1 level of Spellthief, 1 level of Ronin, 1 level of Nightsong Enforcer. anyone know any else?

EDIT: what book is Craven from?

[lsfreak]

Two-level dip in swordsage at some point; I like 10th and 11th level myself if you can hold off that long. Island of blades, Shadow Blade feat, a couple shadow hand manuevers to let you sneak attack more often, a couple desert wind to tack on more damage for a round. And it nets you +2d6 sneak attack from Assassin's Stance and a good chunk of extra damage from Shadow Blade. Note that 2 feats can get you Assassin's Stance (at level 10), but I'd rather have the extra sneak attack-related stuff too.

Craven is from Champions of Ruin (Faerun). There's also a feat in BoED that boosts your sneak attack to d8's, and Bracers of Murder from Drow of the Underdark that let you reroll all 1's on sneak attack. The bracers also gives a +2 bonus on attack and damage against flat-footed targets, and sword of subtlety (DMG) gives +4atk/dmg on all sneak attacks.

[Human Paragon 3]

You can also take 5 levels of Thug Variant fighter from unearthed arcana for another 3 SA dice and +5 BAB.

You could also throw in ninja levels, although that's sudden strike, not sneak attack. The dice will stack.

While you're throwing on sudden strike, you may as well grab 3-5 levels in Dread Commando for speedy, stealthy movement in full armor and an intiative bonus.

[unosarta]

Two-level dip in swordsage at some point; I like 10th and 11th level myself if you can hold off that long. Island of blades, Shadow Blade feat, a couple shadow hand manuevers to let you sneak attack more often, a couple desert wind to tack on more damage for a round. And it nets you +2d6 sneak attack from Assassin's Stance and a good chunk of extra damage from Shadow Blade. Note that 2 feats can get you Assassin's Stance (at level 10), but I'd rather have the extra sneak attack-related stuff too.

hey, there is another idea. swordsage isn't a bad idea, especially with Assassins stance.

Craven is from Champions of Ruin (Faerun). There's also a feat in BoED that boosts your sneak attack to d8's, and Bracers of Murder from Drow of the Underdark that let you reroll all 1's on sneak attack. The bracers also gives a +2 bonus on attack and damage against flat-footed targets, and sword of subtlety (DMG) gives +4atk/dmg on all sneak attacks.

i believe that the feat in BoED only works on evil foes, and i would probably do that if i were doing rogue/ronin/SoD/NightsongEnforcer/Spellthief/Swordsage, since SoD requires Exalted Feats anyway, and teh other option uses Assassin, with a non-good requirement.

by the way, explaining this backstory to a DM might not be such a fun thing.

and as a final note, this is only theoretical, I probably wont have the chance to play 3.5 for a while, but if anyone wants to use these ideas, go ahead.

[Glyde]

Out of curiosity, where is Ronin from?

[dspeyer]

Nightsong enforcer. Ninja if sudden strike counts.

Also the Assassin's Stance from ToB. You don't need swordsage -- you can take it as a feat.

There's probably a whole bunch of others. I wonder if the requirements of the prestige classes can all be met in one build without non-sa classes.

[dspeyer]

Appropriately enough, I have been very ninjad.

[ishi]

Out of curiosity, where is Ronin from?

Complete Warrior, I think.

[unosarta]

You can also take 5 levels of Thug Variant fighter from unearthed arcana for another 3 SA dice and +5 BAB.

anther good idea.

You could also throw in ninja levels, although that's sudden strike, not sneak attack. The dice will stack.

i had thought about doing this when i first got the idea, but Sudden Strike is horrible compared to Sneak Attack in almost every way. no, wait, every way. period.

While you're throwing on sudden strike, you may as well grab 3-5 levels in Dread Commando for speedy, stealthy movement in full armor and an intiative bonus.

again, look back to comment on sudden strike. this is probably only feasible with a high wealth campaign [for invisibility items, and such], or a gestalt game. i actually do like the dread commando, but if you look at the mechanics and flavor, it is mostly about solo spying, not actual party combat.

but again, this is only a theoretical exercise, and if anyone wants to try to play ninja/dread commando/rogue/Ronin/NE/SoD [or assassin]/Spellthief/Thug Variant Fighter/any other SA class I havent mentioned go right ahead.

[unosarta]

well, if there aren't anymore non-dragon magazine classes that have SA, let the building begin:

so its Rogu5/Nightsong Enforcer1/Assassin 1[i dont want to deal with exalted stuff right now]/Ronin1/Thug Variant5/Swordsage2/Invisible Blade 5 [could go invisible blade4/ST1, but i want more feints. if anyone finds another SA class, this will be solved]

grand total 14d6 SA with Assassin's Stance.

now, there are several ways you can take this, but right now i want to go with the most damage possible. so that would be TWF.

unfortunately, with all of this Partial BAB classes, the attack this will get will probably be few without TWF.

build Progression will likely go like this:

1. Rog1
2. Rog2
3. Rog3
4. Rog4
5. Rog5
6. Rog5/Assassin1
7. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug1
8. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug2
9. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3
10. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage1
11. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2
12. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1
13. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade1
14. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade2
15. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade3
16. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade4
17. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5
18. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug3/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5/NE1
19. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug4/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5/NE1
20. Rog5/Assassin1/Thug5/Swordsage2/Ronin1/Invisible Blade5/NE1

EDIT: feats

H:EWP(bastard Sword)
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Point Blank Shot
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9: WF [Daggers]
12: Far Shot
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18: Improved Initiative

BAB= 3+5+0+1+5+1+1 [+16 exactly, whew]

with all TWF thats 6 attacks a round, without equipment, or spells or anything.

(3.5*15)+1=53.5
53.5*6=321 damage on average.
16*6= 96 minimum, [(6*15)+1]*6=546 maximum.

and some damage from maneuvers. thoughts?

[Faleldir]

Don't forget EWP: bastard sword!
(I assume you'll be a Human or a Strongheart Halfling, so it still fits.)

[unosarta]

Don't forget EWP: bastard sword!
(I assume you'll be a Human or a Strongheart Halfling, so it still fits.)

OH! good point, i forgot all about that.

Edit:
HA! its funny that you need EWP (Bastard Sword), when in reality, you will never use one, instead probably using Dual daggers or Kukri.

[Faleldir]

You'll also want a Deadly Precision weapon (Magic Item Compendium, p. 32, +1 bonus) if you're really optimizing.

EDIT: No, I'm sure you are optimizing. I meant to say "if you absolutely want to go all the way and nothing is overkill".
And forget about the barbed dagger, it's only +2 damage. My memory is not perfect.

[unosarta]

You'll also want a Deadly Precision weapon (Magic Item Compendium, p. 32, +1 bonus) if you're really optimizing.

meh, i didnt put Magic Items in. if someone wants to try putting together a list of magic items for this build, go ahead.

EDIT: also, your statement seems to say that this build isnt really optimized. i challenge you to make a build with more SA

[lsfreak]

Craven is a must, straight +20 on every sneak attack. Double swords of subtlety, if I'm not mistaken, will be better than bastard swords, adding an extra 4 damage onto every sneak attack (I suppose you could argue for bastard swords of subtlety, but that's a bit silly).

With BAB, a 12Dex modifier (18 + tome + item + 5 ranks), +5 shadow hand swords of subtlety, the total attack routine should be roughly 37/37/37/32/32/27/27/22, if I did my math right. I did not do my math right. 40/40/40/38/etc/etc/etc.

[Dark_Scary]

1) Point of note. It is not the Thug variant. It's an SA variant Fighter.

The Thug variant gives up a bonus feat for skill points, and cannot be combined with SA Fighter.

[RTGoodman]

If you're looking for a Good-aligned character (and you probably are if you're including BoED exalted stuff), check out the Avenger PrC from the Wizards website. Yeah, it's an April Fool's Day article that just changed the Alignment pre-req of the Assassin, but it's still legal.

Also, taking a look at the famous Lists of Stuff source from the WotC boards, I think you could probably make something like [Rogue 1/Psionic Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/SA Fighter 3/Avenger 1/Ronin 1/Slayer of Domiel 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Swordsage 2/Avenging Executioner 1/Guild Thief (FRCS) 1] for 13d6 Sneak Attack at ECL 14.

Not sure on the pre-reqs, though, but I THINK it works out. Of course, without Fractional BAB your gonna suck, but still...


EDIT: Screw a bastard sword - use a greatsword or TWF with shortswords. Think of all those d6s!

[unosarta]

Craven is a must, straight +20 on every sneak attack. Double swords of subtlety, if I'm not mistaken, will be better than bastard swords, adding an extra 4 damage onto every sneak attack (I suppose you could argue for bastard swords of subtlety, but that's a bit silly).

actually, what i said was, it was funny because you would never use the bastard swords, because IB's SA needs daggers/kukris/Punching Daggers. if you were allowed Flaws, you could get Craven, and i would highly recommend it, however, to fit into [admitedly wonky] requisites for IB, Ronin, and NE, you just wouldnt have enough feats for TWF too. i have no idea where the hell the Point blank shot and far shot part of IB's requirements came from. maybe Wizards is just mean to people trying to optimize SA

With BAB, a 12Dex modifier (18 + tome + item + 5 ranks), +5 shadow hand swords of subtlety, the total attack routine should be roughly 37/37/37/32/32/27/27/22, if I did my math right.

i am not sure if those Shadow hand swords would work, because to actually SA with IB, you need to be wielding daggers.

[unosarta]

1) Point of note. It is not the Thug variant. It's an SA variant Fighter.

The Thug variant gives up a bonus feat for skill points, and cannot be combined with SA Fighter.

i did notice that, i just thought someone mixed up names and such. that is why i didnt put in the bonus feats.

[UserClone]

1) Point of note. It is not the Thug variant. It's an SA variant Fighter.

The Thug variant gives up a bonus feat for skill points, and cannot be combined with SA Fighter.

You're half right. UA actually recommends combining the two. Which would be AWESOME.

[unosarta]

If you're looking for a Good-aligned character (and you probably are if you're including BoED exalted stuff), check out the Avenger PrC from the Wizards website. Yeah, it's an April Fool's Day article that just changed the Alignment pre-req of the Assassin, but it's still legal.

Haha! that was pretty funny. but actually, that is almost exactly like Slayers of Domiel, a PrC good assassin Type. the class is probably part of an alternate build, and adding in the "Avenger" wouldnt really change much about the SA dice.

Also, taking a look at the famous Lists of Stuff source from the WotC boards, I think you could probably make something like [Rogue 1/Psionic Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/SA Fighter 3/Avenger 1/Ronin 1/Slayer of Domiel 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Swordsage 2/Avenging Executioner 1/Guild Thief (FRCS) 1] for 13d6 Sneak Attack at ECL 14.

ah, but you see, in this build, i havent used any campaign sources, and as such is far more likely to be able to be played. also, this build has more BAB that the other one, and Avenging Excecutioner and Slayers of Domiel cannot be in the same build at the same time. check out the prerequisites.

Not sure on the pre-reqs, though, but I THINK it works out. Of course, without Fractional BAB your gonna suck, but still...


EDIT: Screw a bastard sword - use a greatsword or TWF with shortswords. Think of all those d6s![/QUOTE]

[lsfreak]

Ah, good point. Forgot about invisible blade's dagger requirement. Could easily argue for a dagger of subtlety; the sword is just a +1 sword with an extra 20.000gp tacked on for the +4atk/dmg on sneak attacks.

[unosarta]

You're half right. UA actually recommends combining the two. Which would be AWESOME.

SERIOUSLY!? that would fix the feat problems!

[unosarta]

Ah, good point. Forgot about invisible blade's dagger requirement. Could easily argue for a dagger of subtlety; the sword is just a +1 sword with an extra 20.000gp tacked on for the +4atk/dmg on sneak attacks.

probably could. if so, that racks up the SA damage quite a bit. as would the [AWESOME!] combination of the two Fighter variants and Craven.

[Thurbane]

1) Point of note. It is not the Thug variant. It's an SA variant Fighter.

The Thug variant gives up a bonus feat for skill points, and cannot be combined with SA Fighter.

Not quite:

Simple Variant
Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This variant can also be combined with the thug variant described earlier in this chapter.
Gain
Sneak attack (as rogue).
Lose
Bonus feats.

[Eldariel]

Hm, I wonder if it were possible to get 22d6+20; that is, take a new Sneak Attacking class on each level along with Martial Study+Stance: Assassin's Stance and Craven... If counting Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack together, it should be possible, but I don't think there are enough Sneak Attacking base classes to reach the numerous PrCs.

Of course, some spells (Nightstalker Transformation and Sniper's Shot, among others - some Polymorph-forms too, I'm sure) grant you extra Sneak Attack, so it should be possible to temporarily even exceed that on 20. Also, I recall some Vestige (accessible through Improved Binding feat without any levels) granted Xd6 Sneak Attack. If that's the case, that'd add a bit more. I think the theorethical maximum lies around 30d6+20 by level 20.