(3.X) Counterspelling

[Shpadoinkle]

Does anyone ever ACTUALLY use the counterspell action? I've never seen it used, or even mentioned.

[KillianHawkeye]

I might if I ever got to play spellcasters.

It's not a bad strategy when up against a single spellcasting opponent with a bunch of mooks. You essentially take both yourself and the enemy caster out of the fight until the rest of your party has dealt with the cannon fodder, then you can team up on the caster and ruin his day.

Most players I know would rather have a more visible effect on the battle, however, so I don't often see this strategy in play even when it would actually be very effective.

[Dagren]

I've wondered this myself; it sounds alright, esp. for an archmage, but it requires you to have the same spells prepared as the bad guys, and that doesn't strike me as particularly likely. Maybe if you houserule it to be like an AoO?

[Glimbur]

I've prepared to counterspell when I had nothing better to do; Bard/Sublime Chord versus a dragon, and the rest of the party was doing fine and I didn't have any really useful spells.

I did once see a character built to counterspell: he had a staff with 200 of a cantrip from each school, then used Improved Counterspell, Metamagic Spell Trigger, and some other stuff to counter all sorts of stuff. Sadly he couldn't take out both a standard action and a quickened spell from a caster on the same turn, which is the other real weakness of counterspelling.

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

Here's mention of it.

[AslanCross]

It's been said that Sorcerers are potentially better counterspell builds due to having more spell slots per day. Besides, using up a spell known for dispel magic is never a bad idea.

Clerics could also do really well with the Divine Defiance feat (Use up a Turn attempt to counter a spell as an immediate action), though the problem with such a build is that you'd need to boost the cleric's ranks in Spellcraft somehow.

It's just fine with Wizards, but I'm sure a multiclass of some kind would be much better than a straight classed, Wizard. The advantage of Wizards is that their wider spell selection means you have a greater chance of actually having a counterspell prepared instead of having to use up your prepared dispel magic. Finally, the Wizard is highly likely to have maximum ranks in Spellcraft. I've never seen a Wizard fail a Spellcraft check.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Generally, the best way to counterspell is to take Heighten Spell and the counterspell feats so you don't need to match the exact spell on a Sorcerer. But it's still readying an action for something your opponent might not do, that only works on casters appx equal to your HD, and does it by burning spell slots like water, so not great.

[Eldariel]

Generally not as a Readied Action; although sometimes when we're talking about a caster-type boss and a party can take him down with sheer action advantage by preparing counterspelling.

Still, preparing to hurt him big time is generally a better idea as if you deal 40-50 points of damage, chances are he'll fail his Concentration-check. However, if he has enough illusion-based defenses, preparing counterspells while others try to work through those defenses may just work.

Biggest class for this purpose is Warlock; as you have infinite gas but relatively low individual power for each action, preparing to counter may actually be the best contribution from you for a fight against a caster.


But counterspelling in and of itself is pretty useful. AslanCross already mentioned Divine Defiance [FCII]: A great feat for any character with Turn-attempts, allowing you to counter as an immediate action. Another big one is a duo of spells: Battlemagic Perception [Heroes of Battle] and Duelward [Complete Arcane]. Duelward is worse in every respect, but from a less obscure source hence the mention. Both allow you to detect spells and discharge the spell to counter.

Ring of Spell-Battle [Magic Item Compendium] also has uses to this effect. And finally, there's always Epic Counterspell [PGtF], but that's Epic and thus hardly available. Still, it turns counterspelling into a free action permanently, so as Epic feats are wont to be, it's the ultima when it comes to countermagic.

In other words, countering is all fine and good, but generally (barring few specific exceptions where you can be sure the action won't be wasted and it's the best action you can take) it's not something to ready actions for.


As for best counterspeller, Clerics are v. good with Inquisition-domain (Church Inquisitors get it for free and Contemplatives can get it too) & Divine Defiance, or Wizard with Master Specialist Abjurer and maybe Archmage-ability "Mastery of Counterspelling". Really, the best results would come from a mix:

Cloistered Cleric 1/Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 5/X +1, or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil to get the wonderful Kaleidoscopic Doom and such. Illumian with Krau-sigil is the best race; makes up for the lost Abjurer Caster Level, and gives you Cleric CL 3 qualifying you for Divine Defiance. Obviously you use Dispel Magic for countering. With Arcane Mastery, you can't ever botch the Dispel-check unless opponent's CL is like 9 points over yours.

Some items help too, although they're mostly for amateurs, not specialized dispellers/counterspellers. Dispelling and Counterspelling Compendium for the interested.

[AslanCross]

An obvious problem with counterspelling is that if you build your character around it, there's a chance that you won't be able to use it much depending on your campaign. If you're not going up against a lot of casters, it's going to hurt.

It's an ok option to fall back on, works best when you prepare spells for the express purpose of counterspells, but otherwise I wouldn't make it my primary casting strategy.

[Eldariel]

An obvious problem with counterspelling is that if you build your character around it, there's a chance that you won't be able to use it much depending on your campaign. If you're not going up against a lot of casters, it's going to hurt.

It's an ok option to fall back on, works best when you prepare spells for the express purpose of counterspells, but otherwise I wouldn't make it my primary casting strategy.

Then again, you're still a Wizard (or Cleric). Glitterdust/Web/Solid Fog/Orb/Enervate/Zilla/whatever their sorry asses. The good news is that non-casters are rarely that dire a threat so if you never face spell-users, I'd say you're pretty damn well off. I mean, it's not like a Wizard needs class features or feats to kick ass.

Though incidentially, you actually get a bunch of great abilities even against non-casters even if specializing in dispelling/counterspelling. Initiate in particular is mean as opponents have to make a billion saves to do anything to you even if they do get next to you (and of course, arrows will never hit you). And Master Specialist can dock Anti-Magic Fields on the opponents (level 10 ability + arcane reach) and fly.

[Abstruse]

Biggest class for this purpose is Warlock; as you have infinite gas but relatively low individual power for each action, preparing to counter may actually be the best contribution from you for a fight against a caster.

OK, now you've got me curious -- how precisely would a warlock counterspell, even if he/she had the Improved Counterspell feat? Their invocations generally won't match any spell that an offensive caster would be tossing about, and even with a loose definition of "school" -- like using the warlock's "summon swarm" as a "conjuration" spell -- you couldn't heighten it to counteract, say, a Cloudkill.

Or are you suggesting that the warlock's best action is to shoot the enemy spellcaster in the face every time they try to cast something, thus forcing a Concentration check?

[Zhalath]

Counterspelling never seemed very useful, mostly because of the huge lists of spells in existence, so that it's nigh impossible to have the same spell as your enemy, unless it's a spell that's used a lot.
Just seems easier to use dispel magic to counterspell, or something to disrupt casting.

[Eldariel]

OK, now you've got me curious -- how precisely would a warlock counterspell, even if he/she had the Improved Counterspell feat? Their invocations generally won't match any spell that an offensive caster would be tossing about, and even with a loose definition of "school" -- like using the warlock's "summon swarm" as a "conjuration" spell -- you couldn't heighten it to counteract, say, a Cloudkill.

Or are you suggesting that the warlock's best action is to shoot the enemy spellcaster in the face every time they try to cast something, thus forcing a Concentration check?

Use Dispel. To me it's the default form of countermagic anyways. Too unreliable to have spells of the same school prepared. Although the latter course of action is always considerable :P

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ready an action to cast Silence when an opponent casts a spell with a verbal component. Center it on a point in space so they're within the AoE, they don't get a saving throw and their spell is ruined. Clerics, Beguilers, and Archivists can do that easily. It's only a 2nd level spell, so scrolls or wands shouldn't be too expensive.

A better way of neutralizing a spellcaster would be to grapple them. Any Druid should be spectacular at it, and there are a few other decent grappler builds. Casting Black Tentacles will usually be enough, or summon a monster that has improved grab.

A Whisper Gnome with the Silencing Strike feat is also good at neutralizing a spellcaster.

There's a feat in Player's Guide to Faerun called Reactive Counterspell, which allows you to counterspell without readying an action but you lose your next turn in doing so.

[Keld Denar]

You forgot 2 big things. First, a Ring of Greater Counterspells from the DMGII functions just like a Ring of Spell Battle, but better. Its also much steeper in price, but can be useable more than once a day if you stop to reload it with a new GDM.

Another is Sacred Exorcist. Its the only full casting PrC that grants turning. Its relatively easy to get into as a wizard after 7th level, and as long as you don't have a negative cha, gives you 3-4 uses of Divine Defiance per day.

Specialist Abjurer3/MS4/SE1/MS+6/AM3-4/SE+2-3 is pretty good. Alternatively, 4 levels of Iot7V could be fit in there. Make sure you put ranks in Kn: Planes and take the feat Planar Touchstone from the Planar Handbook. This gives you the Inquisition domain power for the +4. Divine Defiance can be your 9th level feat.

Now, you have a GDM of 1d20+14+CL to counterspell using GDM, with a +3 or so from AM's Spell Power + Orange IWIN Stone and Ring of Arcane Might. You can counterspell ~4 (turn undead) +2 (Rings of Greater Counterspelling) +2 (Battlemagic Perception shared with Familiar) times per day, plus how ever many times you can refill your Rings of Greater Counterspelling. Thats pretty strong, about the best you could do outside of gestalt using Geomancer + Divine Spell Power and Bead of Karma. Still, pretty freakin fierce.

[Crow]

I have a heighten-spell battle-sorcerer which uses it quite often. With a limited selection of spells, I don't always have the perfect spell available, and a lot of times the enemy caster might! I counterspell his crap while my party blitzes him out of the fight, and then we all take care of the leftovers.

[Eldariel]

Another is Sacred Exorcist. Its the only full casting PrC that grants turning. Its relatively easy to get into as a wizard after 7th level, and as long as you don't have a negative cha, gives you 3-4 uses of Divine Defiance per day.

Doesn't work. Divine Defiance requires divine caster level 3. Hence Illumian + Cleric-level.

And yeah, Ring of Greater Counterspells is handy. Spell-Battle was just an example (it's mostly used for the redirection and detection anyways).

[Nohwl]

Clerics could also do really well with the Divine Defiance feat (Use up a Turn attempt to counter a spell as an immediate action), though the problem with such a build is that you'd need to boost the cleric's ranks in Spellcraft somehow.

what book is divine defiance in?

[Eldariel]

what book is divine defiance in?

Fiendish Codex II. Pity it's so obscure, really. A really awesome feat (right up there with Divine Spell Power, Divine Might and Divine Metamagic as far as favourite uses for Turns goes), and one that adds a lot of extra interaction to combats, especially between spellcasters. I'm really fond of giving it to my bad guys.

[lsfreak]

Counterspelling as it normally is just isn't worth it to me. You have to know the guy's a caster, you cannot counter "the next spell that's cast" but must target a specific enemy to counter, dispel magic's likely got a 50% or worse failure against a BBEG-type enemy without pumping it up with your other spells, and the biggest problem is you have to use your action. Just hit them with Ray of Stun or Stinking Cloud, or even ready an action to cast an empowered Orb of x, and you've got a more effective "counterspell" than counterspelling.

If you can drop it to an immediate action, it becomes infinitely better.

Of course, there's other problems as well. A level 3 wizard who rolls half-decently to identify the spell can counter an epic-level wizard's maximized empowered twinned repeated enervating energy-admixtured scorching ray without any problems.

[Animefunkmaster]

I am currently playing a counterspeller. Its not really a good feeling as many of the encounters might feature one caster that the party instinctual targets first (For good reason).

If you want to make counterspelling worth it, flip to your handy 3.0 Warcraft players handbook and magic and mayhem. There is a great deal of feats that add nifty effects to dispel magic (more than you could possibly have) and a really good and really steep feat prereq wise (read as: 1 warcraft feat that halfs your spell prep time and ironwill). Those feats will eventually give you something akin to twin spell (using a second slot rather than a higher slot) the ability to free counter spell on spells that target you, bounce those to other targets, and eventually retarget any spell you counter. In addition there are the 'counterspell' spells (they count as any spell X level and below for the purposes of counterspelling only) which are handy for a focused specialist wizard.

Edit: Otherwise readied spells to make impossibly high concentration DCs is the way to go. Chance to snuff out the spell and do damage.

Sorcerers are best if you can apply heighten spell to some spell and improved counter spell, focused specialist wizard is best if you can gnab the "counterspell" warcraft spells.