New to Necromancy

[FatherMalkav]

OK, so in a few weeks I’ll be meeting up with a new DM for a brand spanking new campaign. He’s a good guy and a great writer, but says he’s often suffered from hack and slash players and would like some color in his games. I agreed to join up and came up with an idea for a CG necromancer who uses chose this path more as a cut off of the forces of evil then anything (Hey, they’ll resurrect our dead soldiers to fight for him, If I beat him to it then it’ll cuts down his numbers and I can bury them properly later). The issue is he’s a life loving member of society, so this profession has lead him to alcoholism. This plan works since the DM uses a ‘point system’ for alignment shifts and if the role play supports things (like using evil spells) they won’t force a shift.

The question is…how?

I know the most common necromancer builds are Wizard, Cleric and Dred Necromancer. After scouring the boards (and using search) I haven’t really gotten any ideas since most threads were about breaking the stereotypes I intend on upholding. Going off memory I know the Necromancy School is mostly level drains and debuffs, some damage and slight versatility. I’m going for flavor, not crunch so he doesn’t have to be a necromancer in the school specialization terms, but what would be a good class choice/feats/spells for a reasonably powered necromancer? The focus wouldn’t be on minions, but if I could make one or two decently sized ones then it would be appreciated.
I have access to most 3.5 books, and many 3.0. Dragon Magazine is a bit iffy, but I can try for them (I need proof of any and all classes/feats chosen.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Going off memory I know the Necromancy School is mostly level drains and debuffs, some damage and slight versatility.

Correct, as far as it goes. Most of the good debuffs in Necro are Rays, so a good Dex is a must. Metamagiced Split rays can be evil. Damage generally isn't worth it unless you're going for an Uttercold build(uses metamagic to make all spells half cold, half neg energy, than drops massive damage on your undead and the enemy at once). There's the Corpsecrafter line in LM that lets you have exploding, uber Skele minions. Best as a DN. In fact, this whole thing is best as a DN if you can swing it. The class is awesome.

I’m going for flavor, not crunch so he doesn’t have to be a necromancer in the school specialization terms, but what would be a good class choice/feats/spells for a reasonably powered necromancer? The focus wouldn’t be on minions, but if I could make one or two decently sized ones then it would be appreciated.

DN is the overall best Necro, hands down. The Wizard and Cleric are stronger, but not as good at Necro. Take DN to 8, take Tomb-Tainted Soul at level 1, and go with any PrC you want(or just go DN 20. It's not as strong, but it's much better than most straight-20 builds).

[Talic]

Fatigue, Exhaustion. Take people out of the effective fight without killing them. Ray of enfeeblement, hit up the stat penalties.

You may love life, but these weaken the foe... Without hurting/killing.

[Quietus]

Fatigue, Exhaustion. Take people out of the effective fight without killing them. Ray of enfeeblement, hit up the stat penalties.

You may love life, but these weaken the foe... Without hurting/killing.

And are INCREDIBLY irritating, particularly when hit by them as a PC.

[SurlySeraph]

Do note that Dread Necromancers are technically required to be non-good, so if your DM's a stickler for RAW you might not be able to play one. But they're really the best option if you want to play a necromancer. If you want an army of undead, you need to be able to rebuke and control them. And for that, you need to be either a cleric or a Dread Necro. Wizards can make very powerful necromancers focused on debuffs - there are a lot of terrifying builds based around applying metamagic to Enervation out there - but Dread Necro is best of you want to use undead.

[FatherMalkav]

Ok, so I reread Dread Necro and it fits perfect (I had also forgotten it could control/rebuke; thanks SurlySeraph). Looking at it's familiar choices none fit the campaign world very well (demons/devils are a lor more serious and rarer) While that leaves the Ghostly Vistage and the Vergouille, the paralyzing gaze of the Vistage as well as the ghastliness of the Vergouille would cause real social issues with the other players. While not looking for good alternative, has anyone had a homebrew or non-standard familiar chosen before that fit the class and image, or could make a suggestion of such a creature?

[Flickerdart]

Nothing wrong with plain ol' raven (add a few templates if you feel it doesn't measure up). A lot more stylish and dignified than a head with wings for ears.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, it's homebrew no matter what. You could go with a Lantern Archon, just for the humor factor of an incarnation of purest good following you around, helping you lead your horde of undead abominations in combat. Other than that, a Skeleton Butler, Awakened so it has intelligence, following you around and hitting things with your bags(channeling a touch spell, of course), all the while saying 'Yesh, shir' would be awesome and epic. Or you could go with a standard Familiar Raven, percheed on your shoulder and constantly prophesying doom for you and your friends, and constantly claiming 'You'll be destroyed, just wait and see. Oh, no, I wasn't talking about the Lich. It wouldn't be a Lich. It'll be much...much worse.'

People don't use Familiars enough, IMHO.

[FatherMalkav]

People don't use Familiars enough, IMHO.

Agreed! While I understand the argument that they can be a weakness I love the little guys.

Raven may work, or the butler would be amusing. I think it was in Complete Arcane I read about a stitched familiar, maybe I can take that. Of a floating jesters skull, maybe of a bard wot lighten the mood without losing the gruesomeness of it all?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Agreed! While I understand the argument that they can be a weakness I love the little guys.

I think part of the issue is that(IMHO) doing too much with your familiar turns it into essentially a second character, which many people have trouble RPing. That's why I have so many ideas, I just know I'll never use them.

Or a floating jesters skull, maybe of a bard wot lighten the mood without losing the gruesomeness of it all?

A flying Skull, wearing a yellow-and-purple pointed hat with bells on, telling jokes so bad that all who hear are paralyzed, who then sidles up and produces another hat(he appears to pull it out of the victim's ear) and places it on their head. Could be funnier, though I don't know about less gruesome.

[Devils_Advocate]

I like the character concept. Because, if you think about it, fighting the forces of evil on a regular basis is going to be a pretty depressing job.

The Stitched Flesh Familiar feat is in Libris Mortis. A stitched raven seems like it might make a pretty good familiar. (Alternately, a quasi-evil familiar, if you want it to represent his dark side.)

[Talic]

For Dread Necro? If the DM is allowing Evil spells to not weigh against you, there's no reason for the non-good clause to remain. Talk to him about the concept.

[Dark_Scary]

This is a very good Necromancy guide that covers all the classes. Missing some of the newer material, but a very thorough guide of what Necromancy is.

[FatherMalkav]

For Dread Necro? If the DM is allowing Evil spells to not weigh against you, there's no reason for the non-good clause to remain. Talk to him about the concept.

I talked to him about the concept and he loved it. When I mentioned the issue of eventually becoming evil due to the spells he noted that if I properly played the depression/hopelessness/alcoholism he'd consider the 'spells influence' to be effecting my emotion l health instead of alignment.

@Devils_Advocate: I ike the idea of the stitched raven, maybe with a dove wing or an exposed skull or something. It may see if there's some weak animal/monster (same level as Ver/Imp/quasit/GV) and ask if I can apply the stitched effect like template.

@Dark: Thanks! That's perfect!

[RagnaroksChosen]

For your necro familiar issue.
I once let a player take the necromancer alternate class feature from UA (the one that gives you a skeletal minion) as a dread necromancer. It worked out pritty well. He ususaly had the Necro sealed in platemale so it didn't cause to much of a problem.

[Doresain]

you should go the skeletal bulter, and have it look like the representation of death in Dr. Mcninja...complete with moustache and butler suit

edit: also he needs to be sentient and speak with a silly french accent

[FatherMalkav]

I've never read Mr. McNinja, but I can look into that for reference. While I'm perfectly fine with the butler I don't want the silliness to override the personal horror of the character. A zombie/skeleton servant that occasionally croaked 'Yesss masaaster' is a lot creepier then the exercise nut from Beetlejuice.

The UA skeletal minion is a good option. I need the basic power level to be about CR 2 since that's what all the other options are, or maybe a CR 1 and ask about Stitched Familiar as a free bonus.

[Doresain]

hmmm...scratch the french accent, but keep him as a creepy, sentient, well-spoken skeleton butler that subtly tries to corrupt his "master"...he still follows your orders and what not, but he wants to bring you over to the side of evil

[RagnaroksChosen]

I've never read Mr. McNinja, but I can look into that for reference. While I'm perfectly fine with the butler I don't want the silliness to override the personal horror of the character. A zombie/skeleton servant that occasionally croaked 'Yesss masaaster' is a lot creepier then the exercise nut from Beetlejuice.

The UA skeletal minion is a good option. I need the basic power level to be about CR 2 since that's what all the other options are, or maybe a CR 1 and ask about Stitched Familiar as a free bonus.

The UA one is pritty on par with a familar seeing as it gets no other familar benifits its just a skelly that follows you around and does your bidding. remember you don't get famlair abilities. so it makes it on par

[FatherMalkav]

The UA one is pritty on par with a familar seeing as it gets no other familar benifits its just a skelly that follows you around and does your bidding. remember you don't get famlair abilities. so it makes it on par

Yeah, it seems like it. The DN seems a bit powerful since it's a CR 2 monster that gets familiar bonus's stacked on top of it though as opposed to a CR 1/4 (cat) or 1/8 (Rat).

@Doresain: I actually really like that idea though. The thing is made from necromancy so it can be proof the magic is inherently evil, which leads to a) awesome character development or b) the final breaking of the mans sanity as he is driven mad or gives into an Evil alignment.

I still can't get the imagery of a Stitched Familiar Crow out of my head though. Especially if I can fudge it with the DM to get the ability to speak a language.

[GolemsVoice]

In any case you might really want to take a look at Libris Mortis, since it's about, well, the dead and anything that can be done with them. There's only one aspect that ISN'T included, but that's covered in the Book of Vile Darkness, as far as I know.