Punch Out The Wizard!

[afroakuma]

Alright: You're a ragtag melee combatant without a maneuver to your name. Heck, be a group of same. Say, 4 to 6.

You have a wizard to kill. And not just any wizard. This one's level 20. He might be an incantatrix twinked out to unleash thousands of damage. He might be an Abrupt Jaunting, Contingency-Celerity-Time Stop exploiter. He might just have a thick dossier on how best to ruin someone's day with polymorph and shapechange.

You and your pals are all level 20, with budgets to match and a magic mart that makes the selection here look puny. The gods, in a fit of mercy, have made it so that the wizard cannot cast a gate spell until the creatures from a previous gate have gone. The gods, in a fit of mercy, have denied the wizard astral projection and genesis. The gods, in a fit of marvelous unfairness, told the wizard that you were coming. He has set out a royal welcome.

You have no artificers, no Pun-Pun, no Ubercharger, no Hulking Hurler, no Diplomancer and are all out of cheese. You have no spellcasters in classes that grant 5th level or higher spells. You have no chance to survive, make your time.

Can you punch out the wizard?

If not, what would you need to be able to do so? (Note: This question is not "what deficiencies would the wizard need" but rather "what would you need to be able to do?")

[Flickerdart]

Ring of Three Wishes. All wishes are "help me out here, universe." If that don't work, you're screwed.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Ok, Bard 5 and Wizard 5. Both Elans. Bard has Misquito's (sp) Bite.

You wait till the Wizard decides to camp under the stars. Why would he? You are Elans for a reason...you will never die of old age, so there is a distinct probability that he will feel that urge sometime in his life.

Wizard Flys and Invisibles you both. The Bard casts summon instrument to summon something that would count as a light improvised weapon. Since the wizard is asleep, he is flat-footed, and a target for Misquito's Bite with your instrument. It doesnt technically count as an attack, so no contingencies go off.

You use all of your spell slots dropping mandolins on a helpless Wizard from 2000 ft. Hope it kills him, or you will have to run.

This is of course assuming that the gods tell him and he goes "Ha, 5th level characters?! I could take them in my sleep!" and decides not to act on it. Otherwise, you are 100% screwed.


EDIT: I tottally misread that , somehow thinking that you were 5th level, and all spellcasters in classes that grant 5th level or higher spells. Go figure Maybe it counts anyway, seeing that a Bard is doing the heavylifting

[Eldariel]

In the immortal words of Korgoth:
"I don't do Wizards."


But seriously, you can even cold the Wizard. If he makes mistakes. A ton of them. And you get lucky. First, he needs to:
-Decide to fight you instead of relocating his stronghold to a more peaceful place or binding a few Pit Fiends to end you.
-Decide that you're not worth using XP on and thus refuse to use Gate.
-Decide that you're not worth using money on and thus forbid himself the use of Crafted Contingencies, charge items and such.
-Decide that you're not a real threat and leave his buffing half-way unfinished.

If all this is true, all he has on him is one contingency, Celerity+Foresight, Shapechange and few random weaker buffs. This is easy; have enough guys Shoot Him For Lethal, have people spread out, and shoot him for lethal again after his contingency has whisked him somewhere, hopefully within your reach, before he gets to act. Sure, it takes really, really pimped out shooters to hit the guy (if he doesn't want to be hit), but it's possible.

The biggest problem is that he's maybe 300000000 times more mobile than you are without equipment magic (which you'll make heavy use of, but as the abilities are inherent to him, there're many distinct advantages to his method). So getting to him is seriously a fcking pain, especially since Scrying loses to Mind Blank (or hell, his level of Nondetection if he feels like it) so you can't even Scry'n'die on him. If you can get him to engage you so that you can fight back, you've got a solid chance.

[TheLogman]

The best answer is an item of antimagic field, preferably 4 of them. Make it a ring.

Make it so the ring makes antimagic field at will, on or off. This means the only thing he can hit you with is a Mage's Disjunction, which he could have up to 6 of, plus any scrolls. So pack a LOT of them. Or, somehow rig up a ring of counterspelling to make it so you can't be mage's disjunctioned.

Then just knife him. HARD.

This WOULD require some sneaking. A team of 4 rogues with maxed move silently and hide could do it though. So the only question is how to find him, and how to get to him. Both of these are difficult questions, except that we have weapons and items that can do it and set it all up. Just find him, verify in case of tricky magic, teleport it, turn on the rings of antimagic, and then sneak up to him, laugh as his magic fails to wake him, and knife him to death.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Okay, retrying, actually knowing the rules this time

You and your companions are all Artificers Might want to edit the inital conditions to not allow that.


Different tactic, more in the spirit of the rules. You order a magic item that gives you Antimagic field at will. You also each have an item of spell turning that was made by an Initiate of Mystra. You hope to heck that this can disable most/all of the wizard's safeguards.


More ideas coming when I think of them.

[DamnedIrishman]

1. Invent ICBM
2. Fire ICBM at wizard

[afroakuma]

You and your companions are all Artificers Might want to edit the inital conditions to not allow that.

Rules changed accordingly.

[Eldariel]

Anti-Magic Field is a pretty horrible idea. 10' emanation basically just disables any magic items you have removing the small inkling of hope you've got to win. I mean, the Wizard might just sleep as a friggin' Dire Tortoise meaning he always acts on the surprise round. And he's very likely not sleeping in an inn when he can just make a Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion.

Of course, that's not even to mention the fact that Mindsight reveals you. And I don't find it unlikely to have a crafted contingency "if Anti-Magic Field is being activated within 30' from me...", which would screw up this plan hard. Not to even mention the fact that he knows you're coming. He can use Contact Other Plane to determine the exact second of your arrival. As Gods have foretold it...well, you're the hapless one here. Sufficient to say: It's a TRAP!

[Olo Demonsbane]

Super Leadership Man! Has tons of cohorts who have leadership, and their cohorts have leadership, and so on, down to level 13. Assuming everyone starts with Buffed up Charisma (18+level adjustments+4 magic), Great Renown, Fairness and Generosity, Special Power, You have a stronghold and you have the feats Undead Leadership,Close Cohort, and Leadership, you have:

Level 20 (34), 2 Level 17 (30), 4 Level 16 (29), 8 Level 15 (27), 16 Level 14 (26), 32 Level 13 (25) = 126 Leadership scores of 25+
1st--17010
2nd--1638
3rd--882
4th--504
5th--252
6th--252

Make them all Warlocks with Eldritch Spear and Maximize Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast).

Rig up a large Ring Gate System: 1000 of them fire at 1 ring gate. You would need like 20 sets, and then put the recieving ends all pointed at one ring gate. You hold that one. If you shout "NOW!", point it at the wizard, and succeed on your touch attack, you should do 137,592 untyped damage.

EDIT: Allright, Good. Artificers could easily disrupt this.

[afroakuma]

Alright, so knowing that the wizard gets the surprise round, knows all of your capabilities, has time to plan etc.,

what would you need to be capable of doing to stand a chance? Besides "being a wizard" etc.

[Olo Demonsbane]

A magic item of Celerity maybe?

[Tohron]

I assume that since Astral Projection is banned for the Wizard, then self-Simulacrums are also banned? And what are the limits to where the Wizard can choose to locate himself? If he chose to stick around Mechanus, for example, then the attacking fighters might soon encounter a bunch of angry Modrons who aren't happy with their attempts to start a fight.

[Haven]

Well...Null Psionics Field would probably bypass all "Whenever an antimagic field is set off nearby" contingencies, at least. Beyond that, I have no idea.

[SadisticFishing]

What about Use Magic Device? Get enough scrolls that you're basically 5 wizards, except with better defenses.

[afroakuma]

The wizard can choose to be anywhere that your ragtag band can go. If he goes to Mechanus, then your ragtag band can do likewise.

Self-Simulactrums are banned, as is Ice Assassin (or whatever it's called).

[Olo Demonsbane]

Alright, so knowing that the wizard gets the surprise round, knows all of your capabilities, has time to plan etc.,

what would you need to be capable of doing to stand a chance? Besides "being a wizard" etc.

Wait, you forgot psionics as well. Edit that 1st post again

If someone knows all of the information, gets to act first, has the right tool for the job, and has near unlimited power, there is not much you can do against them. You must deny them of some of their advantages.

Example Tactics:
1. Mislead him. He thinks you just activated antimagic field, but you really activated spell turning. When he hits you with his uber Orb, he will be really sorry.
2. Get an item of unlimited celerity. If you go first, you have some chance, however small it might be.
3. If you send in telporting suicide squads, he will not be able to prepare spells if you time it properly. This works best if you have an item of "transporation" gate and have a thrallherd.
4. Have a justicar hogtie him with antimagic shackles.

Preferabbly do them all. One of them probably will not let you win, two might, three gives you a slight chance, and four gives you a moderate shot.

[Human Paragon 3]

OK, so we have our 4 items of anti-magic field as per above. This is a great start. But what about our rag-tag team of go-getter wizard killers?

Better have somebody with the entire mage slayer feat tree. Preferably somebody with reach. This goes without saying, I should think.

But these people need to be at their best in said anti-magic field... which means magic items, buffs, etc. etc. are not what this is about. Get ready, cause I am about to blow your mind.

Hero #1:
Soul Knife 4/Soul Bow 10/Ranger 6

This guy has a powerful magical weapon even in an Anti-Magic field, +16 BAB, and an attack with incredible range. Oh, and his mind arrows are suppression, which means even without the AMF he can de-buff the wizard. Feats should focus on increasing his range and #of attacks.

Hero #2
Monk 20
Another guy that's very at home in the AMF. This guy just shadows the wizard making sure the AMF moves with him, and if necessary initiating a grapple. Jump-amancy comes in handy as well in case the wizard takes to the sky.

Hero #3
Spellthief 20.
Who needs to cast 5th+ level spells when you can just STEAL THEM! Disjunctions be damned, steal those and send them back at him. Of course, this is all irrelevant with the AMF's up, but it would certainly be nice to have as a back up plan if (read: when) the wizard starts casting spells anyway.

Hero #4
Half Ogre Fighter 4/Factotum 15

Large with a large spiked chain and the mage slayer feat tree. Very nice in the anti-magic field because practically all class features are Ex., including cunning surge which gives him extra standard actions.

I believe this team, equipped with plenty of items of AMF would stand a reasonable chance against the wizard.

[Roderick_BR]

Can you just punch out the DM, and run away with the wizard's sheet?
Well, my other idea is to give him bread, butter, and ham. He already have the cheese...

[Alleine]

One person with full ranks in knowledge: Siege weapons, craft: Siege weapons, and Weapon Proficiency: Siege Weapons.

Since you're all fighters or somesuch, you've got health to spare, so a teensy little drop probably won't phase you. Pimp out the catapult with all sorts of great enchantments to make it throw further and faster and turn the ammunition into all sorts of colourful things that cause pain. Make several of these catapults, then launch the rest of the party at the Wizard simultaneously.

What's more fun than one enchanted fighter used as catapult ammo? 5 of them.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You don't. The Wizard knows you're coming.
Round 1: You say 'Yes, well do it'.
Round 2: Wizard: Greater Teleport, Contingency(Celerity[I cast Greater Teleport]), Rod-Maximized Timestop
Round 2: Wizard is Dazed, T1
Round 3: Delayed Blast Fireball, Quickened Dimension Anchor, T2
Round 4: Delayed Blast Iceball, Quickened Solid Fog, T3
Round 5: Delayed Blast Fireball, T4
Round 6: Greater Teleport, Quickened Cloudkill, T5
Round 7: Timestop ends, you take 60d6 damage, and you're stuck moving 5 ft per round while you take 1d4 Con damage a round. In other words, you die.

Final cost-1 4th, 1 6th, 7 7th, 1 8th, 1 9th.

[potatocubed]

Hmm. The AMFs are a good start, but what you also need is a way to track and follow the wizard nearly-instantly when he sees four huge anti-magiced blokes coming to kill him and flees to another plane entirely.

Your other option is to try and take him by surprise even though he knows you're coming, since his low hp are his primary weakness. Similarly, make sure all your weapons are loaded with Con-damaging poison. Or Int-damaging poison - if you can start knocking his Int down below 19, he becomes a lot less threatening in a very short space of time.

Could you smear your entire body in Int-damaging contact poison, then grapple him? I mean, as a fighter you have a) good Fort and b) little to fear from an Int of 2 so long as you can remember "hug the wizard".

[Quietus]

You don't. The Wizard knows you're coming.
Round 1: You say 'Yes, well do it'.
Round 2: Wizard: Greater Teleport, Contingency(Celerity[I cast Greater Teleport]), Rod-Maximized Timestop
Round 2: Wizard is Dazed, T1
Round 3: Delayed Blast Fireball, Quickened Dimension Anchor, T2
Round 4: Delayed Blast Iceball, Quickened Solid Fog, T3
Round 5: Delayed Blast Fireball, T4
Round 6: Greater Teleport, Quickened Cloudkill, T5
Round 7: Timestop ends, you take 60d6 damage, and you're stuck moving 5 ft per round while you take 1d4 Con damage a round. In other words, you die.

Final cost-1 4th, 1 6th, 7 7th, 1 8th, 1 9th.

Except that Time Stop doesn't give you ACTUAL turns. It gives you rounds of "apparent time", during which time you're dazed, because of your Celerity. "apparent time" isn't "real time", thus can't be used to evade the Dazed effect of Celerity.

My interpretation, of course, but I tend to go with the one that doesn't break the game.

As for this thought exercise, the very first thing you do is get as much anti-scry/divination magic items as you can get your grubby mitts on. If you can get the ability to deflect rays/orbs/spells, so much the better. Templates are good; I like the Flying template, as it's only LA +2 (can be bought off easily by 20), and gives +4 dex, +2 wis, and a fly speed of land speed+20 feet, at a maneuverability based on your dex. 17+ dex = perfect maneuverability.

A straight 20 Monk character with the Flying template gets a super fast fly speed (if you insist on the broken interpretation of Celerity, then I'll go ahead and say "30 foot base speed +60 enhancement, 90 foot base speed. 110 foot base fly speed, +60 enhancement, 170 fly speed, perfect maneuverability". Add Anti-magic item as you wish, because all of this is (Ex). Charging 340 feet in any direction is fun!

If you've got a Contingency against approaching Anti-magic fields, then I know I can pepper you with arrows from afar. Or just charge+stun. Or disarm that mithril heavy fortification buckler every high level Wizard supposedly has, and stun you. The key is for everyone in the party to have quick-escape buttons ready, in case things don't go according to plan. Don't let the Wizard know more than you can avoid, and try to learn as much as you can about him. Using the Monk above to learn as much as possible (and, if you can find a way to do it, getting that spell-deflection ability in there) uses the Monk's one strength - the ability to survive many situations - and takes advantage of it as an advance scout. Learn what you can hit the Wizard with, then do it. Be more creative than he is, and be crafty about it.

[Killer Angel]

what would you need to be capable of doing to stand a chance?

You must see him, the better you can, so True Seeing for all the pcs.
You also need mobility. The whole group needs a LOT of mobility, or you're screwed. Having mobility, you can try to escape wizard's attack (even those of the creature he can use against you) and you can have a chance to be dangerous.
At least 1 horizon walker pc with shifting mastery (2 is better), and at least 3 other pc's must have similar possibility (D.D. or teleport with spells or equipment), but given the lack of high level spells, you'll need those 4th and 5th spell slots...
Imo, before reasoning on tactics, you'll should have these requisites; without them, you'll stand no chance.

[Zaq]

Okay. The Wizard is going to go first. Between Shapechanging into a Dire Tortoise, Foresight, Moment of Prescience, Contingency (both spell version and Craft version) and the old block-o-muenster (Greater) Celerity, the Wizard is clearly going to get the first volley. You need a way to survive the first volley. You need to make it so that even when he blows his wad on you, he can't get all of you at once. This will be tricky, of course, since he can have pals around (summoned, bound, gated, or whatever), he gets several rounds to work with (damn you Timestop!), he can teleport away if you pull something he doesn't expect, and all the other delightful tricks that a wizzie gets. The point is, to even think about punching out the wizard, you need to survive a round (or so) of everything he can throw at you. After you actually get to, you know, act, then we can worry about penetrating his defenses, getting past his contingent teleports, making sure that the one you hit is the real one, and all that good stuff. Step one is making sure some or all of you survive until your initiative (and, since it's not a guarantee even then, your first actual action) comes up.

Honestly I'm not sure how we go about doing this. If we can get some nice items of contingent Disjunction (possibly wished-for, since we can buy rings of wishes), that's a start. AMF won't cut it... he's got orbs, disjunctions of his own, summons, the ability to transform into very very nasty things, and if that weren't enough, Wish. If we can deny him his extra actions (gained via timestop, celerity, contingencies, and summons), we can start to press the action advantage and hope that he can't take out more than one or two of us per shot, which at least means we don't have to stick to scientific notation to talk about our chances. The closest thing I can think of off the top of my head is the epic feat Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), but that's 1) epic, 2) requires spellcasting, and 3) not enough on its own. But it's kind of the thing that we're looking for, something that will match or negate some of his first-turn action advantages.

So, in a nutshell, here's what we're looking at:

1) The wizard will go first, and will take multiple effective actions on his first turn.
2) We cannot survive his first turn if he gets off all his timestops and contingencies and everything, so we need a way to negate those, possibly with our own contingencies.
3) Once we manage to mitigate that advantage, we need to find a way to ensure that even though some of us will surely bite it, some of us will survive long enough to even begin to think about breaching his actual defenses.

Thought: A Frenzied Berserker with Death Ward and some contingent "no" buttons is pretty hard to kill. The wizard can certainly do it, but the more effort we have to make him spend to do so, the better. The problem remains of the wizard going first and getting way more than a single round's worth of actions (actual or effective) before we even get to twitch a muscle.

[arguskos]

I'm personally curious, is there any chance that you could have a Contingent Celerity triggered to "When someone else casts Celerity"? If so, doesn't yours happen first? If yes, then you get a single free action to beat on the wizard with.

Just a machete for your intellectual thicket, so to speak.

[jcsw]

I'd like to point out this very wrenchthrowing spell, Book of Exalted Deeds, Starmantle.

Combined with Spell Compendium, Ruin Delver's Fortune.

Combined with somehow gaining free persistent metamagics.

[Eldan]

Well.... I would do this with four rogues, all of which have max ranks in Use Magic device, Skill Focus: Use Magic device and their highest stat in charisma.

They they would spend all their money on scrolls and copy all the tricks the wizard would try. Of course, that is cheesy.

[toddex]

More wizards? Or psions, that would be fun.

[Eldariel]

I'm personally curious, is there any chance that you could have a Contingent Celerity triggered to "When someone else casts Celerity"? If so, doesn't yours happen first? If yes, then you get a single free action to beat on the wizard with.

Just a machete for your intellectual thicket, so to speak.

Isn't that what all Wizard duels with Craft Contingent Spell in play come down to? :o