[4.0] Martial Controller

[PnP Fan]

Has anyone heard anything about a martial controller in the works?
I'm curious to see how they would go about doing something like that. I've got a few general ideas that would work well fluff that sounds like a Monk. Pressure points that inflict damage and other effects like Slowed or Dazed, for example. Or powers that allow you to move blindingly fast while making attacks on several opponents, in a 3x3 blast area (or 6 square wall area).
So . . . anyone heard anything?

[Quellian-dyrae]

Haven't heard of any, but you know what might work? A warlord-esque character who basically has a unit that it commands, kinda like the animal companion ranger or whatever it is. The powers would be orders that you give to the unit, like they could gang up on one enemy, group around the commander and attack those nearby (close blast or burst), go and attack everyone in a certain area (ranged blasts and bursts), interfere with enemies in various ways to inflict status effects, etc. Could have a "formation" mechanic similar to stances, like one lets them attack those who come near like a swarm, another lets them work like a barrier to section off the battlefield and provide cover, another lets them give bonuses to allies they are near, etc.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There are IMHO 2 options:
1:Martial Artist. Someone who throws enemies, pulls things off the walls to make the terrain harder to work with, tripping, disarming, and generally using superior skill to move enemies where he wants them to go. Monk without the DBZ fluff.
2:Alchemist. He doesn't actually fight, he rather tosses small explosives that push enemies, goo bottles, nets, that sort of thing. Not as Martial, but can do more controller-y things. Would have to be careful not to be magical, but could be done without major focus on the alchemy, using nets, lassos, caltrops, and similar devices(only working well in his skilled hands).

[NecroRebel]

I've not heard of anything official; however, various polearm-focused builds have been designed that can turn Fighters and Warlords into decent local-area controller-esque characters via pushes, slides, knockdowns, slows, and similar.

They're difficult to pull off effectively pre-paragon, though, as that is the earliest one can pick up some of the really fantastic polearm control feats, particularly Polearm Gamble and, oddly enough, Heavy Blade Opportunity. Essentially, what you want to do is take a Glaive on a Warlord/Fighter with Polearm Gamble, Heavy Blade Opportunity, Polearm Momentum, and Spear Push as feats (3 paragon-tier, so level 12 minimum) and Opening Shove as an at-will power. Then, when an enemy moves adjacent to you or leaves a threatened square, you use your OA with HBO to use OS, pushing them 2 and knocking them prone due to PM.

Pure Fighters can sort of pull this off with Footwork Lure and a Glaive again, and this comes out at level 11 minimum as Spear Push isn't needed. When an enemy tries to run or enters an adjacent square, you Footwork Lure them to slide them into where you were. No knockdown on this one, though, hence why Warlord/Fighter is better at paragon tier.

Dwarven Halberdier Fighters become ludicrously effective at control-Fightering at level 21, when they can finally have Knockback Swing, Polearm Momentum, Spear Push, and Polearm Gamble. Whenever an enemy threatens on OA from them, the enemy gets pushed and knocked prone whether or not the OA hit. Given means of extending their threat range, such as the Polearm Master's level 12 utility, and extra reach, dwarf halberiers can create a massive zone of control that is essentially impassible by many enemies.

[Artanis]

I hope there's never a Martial Controller. People already complain enough about there not being enough differentiation between the power sources, why take away one of the few differences that exists?

[PnP Fan]

Hmmmm . . .
Looks like it's time for some homebrew!!!!

Okay, realistically, probably not. If I thought I could actually get it published, I might consider putting some effort into it, and figuring out the proper balance, playtest, etc. . . But the truth is I have too much stuff to do as it is. Maybe I'll sneak over to the WotC board and drop a hint and see if anyone runs with it.

yeah . . . .psychic monks. It's not terrible, and not entirely unfounded.

I was kinda hoping they'd fill round out the existing groups first though. PHB2 seemed to put a lot of effort into filling out Primal in all four roles, and completing the rest of the roles for Divine and Arcane. Not sure why we really needed a second Arcane Striker. Though I do like the flavor of the Sorcerer. Anyway, I'm starting to ramble.
Thanks for the responses fellows!

[Thajocoth]

In the monster manual, there are enemies that move and make attacks during that movement. I can see something stemming from that concept working to fill the niché.

[Townopolis]

I hope there's never a Martial Controller. People already complain enough about there not being enough differentiation between the power sources, why take away one of the few differences that exists?

I'd agree, except that Martial is currently the only source that doesn't cover every role. It's also going to be under-represented very soon.

Ok, if you exclude FR from core, then there are no arcane defenders, but with Swordmages in Arcane Power, it's unclear whether they're considered core or setting-specific any more.

[Thanatos 51-50]

A Rogue works decently as a kind of controller, with lots of slides and such, especially artful Dodgers.
Go Shadar-kai and take Spiked Chain training for maximum fun time! (Dragon 371)

[Kurald Galain]

2:Alchemist. He doesn't actually fight, he rather tosses small explosives that push enemies, goo bottles, nets, that sort of thing.

That would be the Artificer class.

[Burley]

Dwarven Halberdier Fighters become ludicrously effective at control-Fightering at level 21, when they can finally have Knockback Swing, Polearm Momentum, Spear Push, and Polearm Gamble. Whenever an enemy threatens on OA from them, the enemy gets pushed and knocked prone whether or not the OA hit. Given means of extending their threat range, such as the Polearm Master's level 12 utility, and extra reach, dwarf halberiers can create a massive zone of control that is essentially impassible by many enemies.

This is basically my character, but fully realized.
Also, while the Dwarven Halberdier does have better damage, having a glaive lets you mix Polearm Gamble with Heavy Blade Opportunity. Not as much damage, but you'll get slightly more controllery attacks. Good guild for Longtooth Shifter, as long as you make the initial investment in Dexterity, instead of Intelligence.
Anyways, the Controller is the one role that, I feel, works best as a sub-role. Martial as a power source is well and full, and I don't want to see another class like the Invoker just thrown out into the world because we're looking all the roles.
However, an Acupuncturist class would be pretty neat. (Re: Kiss of the Dragon.)

A Rogue works decently as a kind of controller, with lots of slides and such, especially artful Dodgers.
Go Shadar-kai and take Spiked Chain training for maximum fun time! (Dragon 371)

You give pretty good advice, Thanatos, but here's my question:
Does this Spiked Chain Training somehow make the Spiked Chain a light blade? Because a rogue focusing on a weapon that isn't a light blade, sling, or crossbow (or the Ruthless Ruffian's club/mace) is a rogue that is seriously limiting it's options, as well as throwing it's SA to the curb...

[PnP Fan]

I hope there's never a Martial Controller. People already complain enough about there not being enough differentiation between the power sources, why take away one of the few differences that exists?

Because, as a fellow consumer, I'm complaining that I would like to see a martial controller? And I would hope that my complaint (I prefer the term feature request ;-) carries as much weight as any one person complaining on the opposite side.
Besides, in a system where balance was apparently a significant factor during design, any character that fills a certain role is going to look a lot like another filling the same role. You can look at your classless systems and it becomes pretty apparent that fluff really is just fluff. For example, if you're tanking in GURPS, it really doesn't matter much whether you are playing a Construction Worker, or a trained Knight of the Realm, your attributes and skills look pretty much the same. That they've managed to make the Invoker, Druid, and Wizard different at all (through damage types, special effects, etc. .. .) is impressive.
But here's the rub: Wouldn't it be neat to have a controller whose effects aren't subject to Dispel Magic?

[PnP Fan]

Ok, if you exclude FR from core, then there are no martial defenders, but with Swordmages in Arcane Power, it's unclear whether they're considered core or setting-specific any more.

Actually, Fighter is considered a Martial Defender.
So far the only role not covered by Martial is the Controller. (which is why I asked the Playground in the first place, because I know there are folks here who keep up with the industry a little more closely than I do.)

[Thajocoth]

Ok, if you exclude FR from core, then there are no martial defenders, but with Swordmages in Arcane Power, it's unclear whether they're considered core or setting-specific any more.

You mean arcane defender.

[Artanis]

But here's the rub: Wouldn't it be neat to have a controller whose effects aren't subject to Dispel Magic?

Considering all the ways that Controllers have of messing with people without using conjurations or zones, no, not really. And if "fluff is just fluff" like you insist it is, then "the rub" is in fact completely irrelevant.

[Townopolis]

You mean arcane defender.

You are correct. Fixed.

[Ninetail]

There are some problems with martial controllers. A lot of the time, proposals fall into one of three categories:

1. Something that requires special materials. (Gadgeteer, for instance.) Eventually the materials will run out and the controller can no longer do his job.

2. Something that requires preparation (Trapmaker). In the typical game, the characters don't have the ability to prepare most of their battlefields ahead of time.

3. Something focused on single enemies or melee range (Martial Artist types). Part of a controller's role is the ability to impede large groups of enemies, often before they can close with the party. It gets difficult to rationalize a martial combatant with a lot of ranged burst powers.

The proposals I've seen that come closest to working, IMO, are a "trick archer" or a jester. They both tend to fall prey to point 1, but it might be possible to work around that.

[Colmarr]

1. Something that requires special materials. (Gadgeteer, for instance.) Eventually the materials will run out and the controller can no longer do his job.

This argument should work against the 4e artificer, but it doesn't.

If the artificer doesn't risk running out of materials, what makes you think a martial "gadgeteer" would?

[TheOOB]

You can make your encounter gadgets during a short rest, and your daily ones during an extended rest. Problem solved.

[PnP Fan]

You can make your encounter gadgets during a short rest, and your daily ones during an extended rest. Problem solved.

Sort of. You might need a little more refining of that explanation, like "traps are difficult to destroy", and "traps can be reset". Otherwise you start running into "how many GP in parts are you carrying around with you?" Though it does begin to stretch the imagination a bit. I mean, to have a spell caster creating effects using arcane words and tools (both renewable resources) is one thing. To toss a trap, or set of traps out over an area begins to hurt my brain when I start thinking about "where does he keep the traps?" Not saying it can't be solved, but it needs some more work, that's all.

[PnP Fan]

There are some problems with martial controllers. A lot of the time, proposals fall into one of three categories:

1. Something that requires special materials. (Gadgeteer, for instance.) Eventually the materials will run out and the controller can no longer do his job.

2. Something that requires preparation (Trapmaker). In the typical game, the characters don't have the ability to prepare most of their battlefields ahead of time.

3. Something focused on single enemies or melee range (Martial Artist types). Part of a controller's role is the ability to impede large groups of enemies, often before they can close with the party. It gets difficult to rationalize a martial combatant with a lot of ranged burst powers.

The proposals I've seen that come closest to working, IMO, are a "trick archer" or a jester. They both tend to fall prey to point 1, but it might be possible to work around that.

My initial proposition was a martial artist type character that had things that mimicked close burst and close blast powers, with the broad description that the character moved blindingly fast into the fray, punching, kicking, etc. . . everyone in an x by x square, also possibly delivering other effects like stun/prone/etc. .. along the way.

I hadn't given ranged effects much thought, but you could play with a couple of options:
1. Part of the power requires that the 'lightning fast martial artist' place his character somewhere on the perimeter of his AoE. This would sort of mimic the idea that he moved into the midst of his enemies, performed his high speed attack, and had to end his turn somewhere in the vicinity of his foes.

2. Give the monk an At-Will that improves his speed significantly (+6 heroic, +8 Paragon, +10 epic, as a fairly arbitrary example), which would allow him to get near his enemies, and use his close burst/close blast powers.

I think option 1 has the greater potential for maintaining balance, but 2 pleases the portion of my brain that likes 3.5. :-)

[Morty]

This argument should work against the 4e artificer, but it doesn't.

If the artificer doesn't risk running out of materials, what makes you think a martial "gadgeteer" would?

The problem is, of course, that the existence of Artificer makes it rather unlikely for a "gadgeteer" martial class to appear. I don't think a Martial Controller is going to be released. Most concepts people post on forums are covered by other classes already.

[PnP Fan]

Considering all the ways that Controllers have of messing with people without using conjurations or zones, no, not really. And if "fluff is just fluff" like you insist it is, then "the rub" is in fact completely irrelevant.

Artanis, I have thoughts for your reply, and I wish to continue the conversation.
I have a flight to catch shortly as well, so I must depart, but I didn't want you to feel as though I was ignoring your post.

[Ninetail]

This argument should work against the 4e artificer, but it doesn't.

If the artificer doesn't risk running out of materials, what makes you think a martial "gadgeteer" would?

Because the artificier is an arcane class, while we're talking about a martial controller. Which implies entirely mundane means, although with refluffing that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

But going with the implication... where does the martial gadgeteer get the raw materials he uses for those gadgets? If you're sticking to "non-magical," he can't just conjure them up, the way the artificier presumably could/can. You can handwave it, sure, but at some point, as epic levels approach, it'll strain suspension of disbelief.

Ironically, it also has that problem from the other approach. Say that a low-level power represents scattering a bag of caltrops around. Reasonable. But is this an at-will power? If not, why can I only carry one bag of caltrops? Shouldn't I be able to use the power twice if I carry two bags? If I can't carry multiple bags of caltrops, why not? If it is an at-will power, then how many bags of caltrops can I carry? Assume a fight drags on a hundred rounds... am I carrying 100 bags of caltrops around with me?

Admittedly, mileage probably varies. I'm sure this sort of thing could be handwaved, but I still consider it a concept issue.

[Moak]

Why don't work on an Ranged heavy class?

2 possible build,with throwing weapons or with bow/crossbow,and make their power attack areas and deal status,like slowed,pinned,dazed,ecc ecc...

And I know that there is already the bowranger,but they could very easily be different...as much as a Tempest fighter is different from a TWFranger,or a sorcerer from a wiz,and so on...

Augment area attack,reduce damage,change class features,and I think it could be done...

[ocato]

I could see a martial artist working as a controller. There would be a lot of push/slides, shifting, and secondary attacks.

For example, one might have an attack that pushes an enemy X squares, then knocks him (and enemies adjacent to his new position should he succeed in a secondary attack against them) prone a la Tornado Throw. All sorts of pressure points/trips/joint locks could be used for debuffs (-2 to attacks, daze, prone, immobilize), and maybe some amount of ground stomps (a little cartoony but whatever) to create difficult terrain in a sort of cracked earth sense. The main issue would be in targeting multiple enemies at once as controllers usually do. You might borrow from the sorcerer spell "Spark Form" and give them a class ability that lets them shift through enemies and apply an at-will to everyone they shift through (given certain circumstances or once per encounter or something).

I kind of like this idea, maybe I'll throw together a homebrew or something...

[cupkeyk]

Well the Rogue is a martial charcter and it is a sub-controller. This is most apparent with powers like Blinding Barrage and Knockout. I imagine the martial controller as something similar. Look how the druid's beast form control abilities creates effects at a close burst. I think we will see a polearm/whip/light thrown weapon master that threatens an area and makes terrain hazardous with his presense.

[Dixieboy]

I suggest

"The hulking hurler"

[Artanis]

...and make their power attack areas and deal status,like slowed,pinned,dazed,ecc ecc...

Like cupkeyk alluded to, while there aren't any martial controllers, there are martial sub-controllers. Nothing as blatant as a Swordmage, but they're still there.

Bow/Xbow Rangers get a LOT of -2s and the status effects you mentioned, and while they don't have much outright AoE ability, they do have more multi-target powers than you can shake a stick at. Hell, Twin Strike is pretty good at taking out minions, and can be almost as good as a Burst 1 if the DM likes to keep them spread out. And FWIW, ranged weapons are the only ones that can get the Energyburst enchantments.

Rogues I'm not terribly familiar with, but I know that it's generally accepted that they're secondary controllers, like cupkeyk said. I do know that they get some forced movement, which is one of the hallmarks of a controller.