Necromancy? (4E)

[CheshireCatAW]

Hello,

I'm running my first 4th edition game and one of my players, who is new to pen-and-paper RPG's, wants to know if she can play a Necromancer of some type. I have the core books and the Forgotten Realms set, but I can't find anything in them about making a few skeletons for you to order about. Did I miss something? Is it in one of the books that I don't have yet? If so, which one?

Thank you in advance

[The Rose Dragon]

I think there is going to be a Shadow power source book, which will also have Necromancy.

Or so people think.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm running my first 4th edition game and one of my players, who is new to pen-and-paper RPG's, wants to know if she can play a Necromancer of some type. I have the core books and the Forgotten Realms set, but I can't find anything in them about making a few skeletons for you to order about. Did I miss something?

You can't do that. 4E makes the assumption that having one player control more than one character at a time is unbalancing, so this is not allowed. There are a few strict exceptions; on the one hand, characters like the ranger and shaman that can control one other creature but using their own actions (so either you attack OR your animal attacks, but not both). On the other hand, you can use magical effects like Unseen Servants, but they are not allowed to do anything in combat.

The 4E approach is to play a ranger and pretend that your animal companion is a skeleton, or to cast spells like Stinking Cloud and pretend that this is actually a mob of skeletons. There are a few wizard summon spells that you can pretend are actually skeletons, but they are not very effective at heroic tier, and generally limited to "one per day, for five minutes" rather than "a few to order about".

[The Rose Dragon]

The 4E approach is to play a ranger and pretend that your animal companion is a skeleton, or to cast spells like Stinking Cloud and pretend that this is actually a mob of skeletons. There are a few wizard summon spells that you can pretend are actually skeletons, but they are not very effective at heroic tier, and generally limited to "one per day, for five minutes" rather than "a few to order about".

Which seems to be a common advice that you hand out. I've not really played 4th Edition and had only a brief glance at the core books, so I am not really in a position to argue against your opinion, but is it (it being using the mechanics as is and pretending it's something else than it's presented) the official stance?

[CheshireCatAW]

Hmm.. that's unfortunate, although it's what I was beginning to suspect.

Thank you very much for the prompt replies.

[Tengu_temp]

The 4E approach is to play a ranger and pretend that your animal companion is a skeleton, or to cast spells like Stinking Cloud and pretend that this is actually a mob of skeletons. There are a few wizard summon spells that you can pretend are actually skeletons, but they are not very effective at heroic tier, and generally limited to "one per day, for five minutes" rather than "a few to order about".

Ranger? Why not a shaman? You already have a spirit companion as one!

[Kurald Galain]

Which seems to be a common advice that you hand out. I've not really played 4th Edition and had only a brief glance at the core books, so I am not really in a position to argue against your opinion, but is it (it being using the mechanics as is and pretending it's something else than it's presented) the official stance?

That's a good question. The point is that necromancy as featured in 3E relies mostly on mechanics that were intentionally removed from 4E: ability drain (too complex), save-or-dies (too unbalancing), "evil" effects (PCs are not supposed to be evil) and summoning/animating to generate allies (too time consuming). This comes from a variety of developer's articles.

"Take an ability and pretend it is something else" is indeed a common suggestion from the 4E developers. For instance, before the Monk playtest came out last week, the official stance on playing a monk in 4E was to take a ranger and pretend he's a monk; use your Hunter’s Quarry and rename it to Monastic Battle Focus. Other classes get the same suggestion: ninja? Play a rogue. Beguiler or Duskblade? Take a warlock. Similar suggestions appear in e.g. martial power.

The official news on a necromancer class I could find (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pod/20090112) was "maybe, I can't say that on air". On the one hand, most people expect the PHB4 (which is expected for 2010 or perhaps 2011) contains the shadow power source and will have a necromancer. On the other hand, just like illusionists can no longer use the Silent Image line of spells (or indeed, stay invisibile for more than a minute or two), I would not expect necromancers to be able to command a horde of minions.

Based on a recent Dragon article, 4E has four necromantic wizard spells. One creates a damaging cloud that impairs enemies but not allies, one lets you command a small number of undead for a few seconds, one takes an enemy out of combat for a while, and one actually animates one dead corpse, but the zombie is a rather ineffective combatant and lasts only for a few minutes.

[The Rose Dragon]

Did they consider moving to an effects-based game if they give that suggestion? M&M did it and it's, IMO, a better game than D&D 4th Edition. Even though it still has the same grapple rules as 3rd Edition.

4th Edition does have grappling rules, right?

[Tengu_temp]

Nope. You can only grab people and push them around.

[The Rose Dragon]

Well, at least it is less likely to have nightmarish rules.

I still have nightmares about AD&D grapple rules.

[kieza]

I would suggest making the raising of undead a daily power or ritual; in order to order the undead about once raised, it takes up all actions but your Move action (so you can still walk slowly). Limit her to a normal undead of up to her level, or four minions that she can control simultaneously. Don't base the undead's stats on what they were in life; just on what level they were, like so:

HP: 6 per level + 6 + Int mod
AC: 14 + level
Other defenses: 12 + level
Speed: 4 (zombie) or 6 (skeleton)
Basic Melee: 5 + level vs. AC; 1d8 + Int mod damage; increase to 2d8 + Int mod at 21st level
Zombie Grab (zombie): 3 + level vs. Reflex; zombies deal +1d8 damage to the target until it escapes.
Skeletal Agility (skeleton): Make a basic melee attack, then shift 1.

[Kurald Galain]

Ranger? Why not a shaman? You already have a spirit companion as one!

Because spirit companions can't attack.

4th Edition does have grappling rules, right?

Not particularly. It has something which is called a grapple, but all it does is prevent the enemy from walking away.

[Morty]

Weren't there summoning spells introduced in Arcane Power? I could swear I saw someone mention them.

[tbarrie]

Not particularly. It has something which is called a grapple, but all it does is prevent the enemy from walking away.

Also, it's not called a grapple.

[Artanis]

Weren't there summoning spells introduced in Arcane Power? I could swear I saw someone mention them.

Kurald Galain mentioned them a few posts up. The gist was that they're short and/or suck.

[Holocron Coder]

A suggestion I would make is to look at the summoning mechanics of Arcane Power and homebrew some undead-summoning powers. Perhaps create an animal-companion sort of path for wizards and appropriate powers. Wouldn't take all that much to homebrew, really.

[Tengu_temp]

Because spirit companions can't attack.

I'm afraid that either I have imagined all those Melee spirit 1 powers shaman has, then, or you are

[Burley]

Because spirit companions can't attack.

So... Defending Strike, Protecting Strike, Stalker's Strike, Watcher's Strike, Call of the Ancestral Warrior, Call of the Ancient Defender, and all the powers above 1st level are not spirit companion attacks?
Because, according to PHB2 page 220, under "Spirit", they are spirit companion attacks.

Edit: I refuse to acknowledge being ninja'd by a jpg.

[NPCMook]

Kurald Galain mentioned them a few posts up. The gist was that they're short and/or suck.

Depends which ones you are talking about, Encounter Powers with the Conjuration Keyword seem to rely more on enemies moving by your temporary creature. The Daily powers have the Summoning Keyword which are a bit more powerful as they have special orders you may give them and can even make Opportunity attacks. Also Summoned Creatures usually last until they reach 0 HP, you fall unconscious, or till the end of the encounter. Conjured Creatures tend to last till the Beginning/End of your next turn.

[hamishspence]

There are a few necromantic Rituals in Open Grave.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Question: What does "Necromancer" mean to your player?

If it is having "dark powers" you can take the Cleric and flip all its Radiant powers to Necrotic. Or just play a Wizard and swap some of the damage types to Necrotic.

If it is having one undead flunky, the Shaman is your best bet.

If it is being able to create an army under your control - 4E is not your game.

In short - we need more information.

[hamishspence]

what about Invokers- one of the most summon-heavy classes? Or Arcane Power Summon Wizards?

[Behold_the_Void]

what about Invokers- one of the most summon-heavy classes? Or Arcane Power Summon Wizards?

I was going to suggest an Invoker myself.

[KIDS]

Ranger? Why not a shaman? You already have a spirit companion as one!

Okay, I have to say this is an incredibly brilliant idea. One Mayan/Egyptian ancestor worship themed Shaman with a Wraith Spirit Companion coming up for the next game I play in. Thanks for sparking this!

[Ninetail]

Another good option might be the vestige pact warlock, from Arcane Power. He doesn't have permanent minions to order about, but he does have the dark magic thing down, and calls on various spirits and fallen gods for his powers.

[elonin]

Boy that sucks. There were a few reasons for not being into 4e and this confirms it. Lemme guess this system doesn't have mechanics for picking up someone and throwing them at someone else or using your "friend" to bludgeon your enemies either.

[Artanis]

Sure there is. It'd fall under the "improvised weapon" category.;

[Tengu_temp]

Boy that sucks. There were a few reasons for not being into 4e and this confirms it. Lemme guess this system doesn't have mechanics for picking up someone and throwing them at someone else or using your "friend" to bludgeon your enemies either.

Because if there are no mechanics for something, it means you can't do that. Suuure.

[Mando Knight]

Boy that sucks. There were a few reasons for not being into 4e and this confirms it. Lemme guess this system doesn't have mechanics for picking up someone and throwing them at someone else or using your "friend" to bludgeon your enemies either.

I dunno... I played with a group where the Fighter ended up Gnome-chucking to bypass one trap and counter the Gnome's low Athletics later... it was done with either an Athletics check or a heavy-thrown ranged attack against AC 10...

[tcrudisi]

Boy that sucks. There were a few reasons for not being into 4e and this confirms it. Lemme guess this system doesn't have mechanics for picking up someone and throwing them at someone else or using your "friend" to bludgeon your enemies either.

Actually, out of all the table-top RPG's I have ever played, D&D 4e is the best at improv. They dedicated a whole 2 pages to it. *chuckles* I know, two pages doesn't sound like much, but they did an incredibly good job with it and the rules are very easy to remember. Plus, they stack by level.

And please, let's not let this devolve into a "edition X is better than edition Y". They are two entirely different games. Just as you can't say that 3.x is the same as 2nd ed, you cannot say that 4e is the same as 3.x.