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Thread: Playing a Balor
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2009-05-23, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Playing a Balor
Just a quick question: since my chatroom players have decided they wanted to play an epic evil game set in Planescape: has anyone ever made either a monster class for a Balor or worked out what a fitting Level Adjustment would be?
Also, same question, but for the Glabrezu?Resident Vancian Apologist
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2009-05-23, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
Meh, written level adjustments would be through the roof. Playable? 3-4. Balor already has 20 HDs and abilities of your average 20th level Gish, so it's definitely nothing broken. The stats would be fairly superb hence the few levels off, but meh, if Epic Spellcasting is allowed, it'd still be a horrible choice for anything but dedicated melee.
Worth noting though that they've got a large array of all-day abilities which some DMs might find worrisome. Still, with the number of level 9 spells Wizards can cast daily at that point, it's unlike to be an issue.
As far as Glabrezu goes, it's a melee beast. It easily beats up any level 12 melee types, so it should have some adjustment (not least of which because of the Huge size), but not much. I'd say 3 is enough; you get +20 Str and True Seeing at will, but beyond that there's nothing game breaking there. It's merely a Big Dumb Brute with few spell-likes and SR.
Of course, the problem is that Outsider-type has 8+Int skills so they become skill monkeys in addition to being adept melee casters. That might be worth tacking another point of LA. Still, seeing the company they're in, they won't be the toughest guys in the house even without LA simply because they'll never get Epic Spellcasting without taking ~10 class levels.
But yeah, 3-5 keeps them playable while still making classes the more attractive choice. If reading some books, the numbers would probably be closer to 20, but that's completely unplayable.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2009-05-23, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
Succubi have a +6 LA. Balors would probably have like a +14 or something.
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2009-05-23, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
Well, as for the question above, no, Epic Spellcasting is out. We're using the Epic Metamagic that is around on the forums somewhere. It still makes casters pretty good, but not as unbalanced. Of course, every Balor will still be melee-related.
Last edited by Eldan; 2009-05-23 at 05:36 PM.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2009-05-23, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
Then I'd give Balor 5-7 levels. Glabrezu would be the same 3-4. The problem is that as the numbers get big, the races simply become unplayable. Low numbers risk brokenness but high levels easily become completely useless due to lack of HD and class levels.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2009-05-23, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
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2009-05-23, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
I am of the opinion that a player should have at least a fair chance at whatever exotic race/class they choose to try, thus I find the listed LA for most races abhorrent. +1 LA for hobgoblins? Come on, they are not considerably better than humans, and worse than dwarves in most respects. Now I'm not saying that playing a monstrous PC will be as effective as taking class levels, but it should be able to compete (that is, be better than a monk).
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2009-05-23, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
run it as a level 20 equivalent character, it should work just fine. You may want to crunch some numbers on it's capabilities, it could work better as a 22 equivalent or so.
Originally Posted by Frank & K
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2009-05-23, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
They aren't meant to be played, but if a player wants to play one, you should make an effort to accommodate their desires rather than punish them :/ Gimping their character is not the way to go; their abilities aren't superior to those of high level PCs so I see no reason to give them stratospheric LA (other than if you want your players not to play them, but this is specifically a question of players wanting to play them; if you don't want players to play something, say so, don't over-LA them). LA becomes completely pointless unless it's assigned strictly with keeping the race playable (that is, competitive with a classed character of the same level) in mind.
This is a friggin' fantasy-game. You should be able to play a demon or an angel if you so desire feeling like one without being punished for it; it's no more out there than "elf" or "gnome".Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-05-23 at 06:08 PM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2009-05-23, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
This may be of some help to you.
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According to this test, I am a LN Half-Orc Cleric, Lvl.2.
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2009-05-23, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
Should have guessed that Krimm made one.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2009-05-23, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
I still strongly suggest culling off some of the level adjustment though. Because to CR 32 creatures, a Balor is mere laughing stock. Or 4 Balors ("equivalent" to one party) for that matter. They would be expected to "take on" 2 Phaethons 4 times per day for example, but fact is that the numbers just don't add up. And that's a tame example seeing that Phaethon isn't even a spellcaster.
They should also easily school a Demilich even though the fight wouldn't even be close...the other way. Basically, out-of-combat they have fine abilities, but they just won't stand up to combat with that kind of an LA. Cutting it down to 6 or so would make it much more bearable. Still behind the curve, but not by as much.Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-05-23 at 08:26 PM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2009-05-23, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
Well, a player Balor will have better stats and equipment. But I can see the point. Perhaps four or so points down?
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2009-05-23, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-05-23 at 08:43 PM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2009-05-23, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
On a related note, would it be unreasonable to reduce the LA of a Rakshasa to +3?
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2009-05-23, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
I'd say you could run them at LA + 4. + 3 is pushing it; outsiders are automatically Rogue-skilled, and they have Sorc 7 casting and some great abilities. But those 3 levels could concievably be used to greater effect so it should be possible; the big thing, their insane SR, is as much a curse as it's a blessing since healing and buffing them is nigh' impossible without the time from them to lower it and raise it again.
Really, Outsiders are the hardest for LA, since Outsider-type kicks so much ass (full BAB, Rogue skills, all good saves, decent HD) and they tend to have a lot of unconventional abilities in addition to having nutty stats across the board. That said, too low is better than too high; at least the player can enjoy himself in the game and his power can be toned down as need be. Too high LA means the player isn't like to have a good time.Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-05-23 at 08:53 PM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2009-05-23, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
Here is a balor monster class I've not had a chance to use it yet but it seems cool.
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2009-05-23, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
My suggestion would be to run this as a Gestalt game and have one side of the character's Gestalt taken up by the Balor's racial HD +LA (whatever number is assigned, I agree with Eldariel it shouldn't be too high). That way he'll still be competitve in Epic play whereas otherwise, well forget about Phaethons, he'd have a hell of a time just with an Anaxim.
Hmm, that would actually be a pretty fun game if you're into the whole Evil thing, having everyone take a fiendish monster for half of their Gestalt.Last edited by Dacia Brabant; 2009-05-23 at 09:42 PM.
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2009-05-23, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Playing a Balor
Edit: I maintain that a balor should just flat out have an ECL of 20. HD=CR=ECL, it's just how things should work, anything else adds needless complexity to the game. If a balor's abilities aren't level 20 appropriate, change it's HD.
Last edited by Prak; 2009-05-24 at 06:43 PM.