Psionic Transparency

[herrhauptmann]

Hi,
I'm getting ready to start running a game of D&D again. Most of the party is experienced, even if most of the party has a thing for unusual tactics (knock on a door and hang a piece of baloney on a string. LBEG answers door, gets puzzled by baloney, and promptly eats ballista bolts for 2 regular rounds because of it).

Anyway, it's an ECL 2 party, and one character wants to play a wilder. And he keeps asking 'Does psionic=arcane?' and gets upset when I say that Spell Resistance will grant equal amounts of Power Resistance, and vice versa. As it is, Psionics and ToB are the two areas of D&D in which my knowledge is very weak.

So I have to ask, is there more to the psionic transparency rule that I don't know about? Something which would explain him getting all annoyed by it?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Your campaign so either magic and psionics are the same and "transparent" or they are different.

He might want to consider an Educated and Mantled Wilder variant for a few more powers:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a

[Human Paragon 3]

No, you seem to have a pretty good grasp of it, actually. Unless a power specifically says magic/psionic transparency doesn't apply, it always applies. This includes spell resistance, dispel effects, even knowledge checks.

HOWEVER, it is within reason to homebrew transparency away, or reduce it. If your player is in love with the idea of psionics getting around spell resistance, that could be a cool flavor aspect for your campaign, and I say go for it. Making the line between the two power sources more pronounced is a good way of better defining each of them.

But if you do this, keep in mind that the power level of psionics will increase somewhat. You can compensate by giving enemies power resistance when appropriate, sending in psionic monsters that drain power points, and a number of other tactics.

In short, have fun and play clean, and everyone will be happy.

[Starbuck_II]

Anyway, it's an ECL 2 party, and one character wants to play a wilder. And he keeps asking 'Does psionic=arcane?' and gets upset when I say that Spell Resistance will grant equal amounts of Power Resistance, and vice versa. As it is, Psionics and ToB are the two areas of D&D in which my knowledge is very weak.

You are playing by the default rules as Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Psionics is Different Is a houserule mentioned, but has huge balance issues. You could try it, but expect him to steamroll encounters.

1) He can't dispel magical buffs, but they can't dispel his psionic ones.
2) All the power balanced by SR no longer have it. This means golems can be killed easily (easier than default game at the least).

So I have to ask, is there more to the psionic transparency rule that I don't know about? Something which would explain him getting all annoyed by it?

He wants to be hugely overpowered pure and simple. There is no excuse otherwise, but Flavor (magic Creatures/people don't know about psionics so no protections).

Maybe he just likes the challenge of no dispelling...but at level 2 you can't dispel anyway. About level 10, the challenge might begin (usually spellcasters will create walls of fire or buffs needed to dispel).

[RTGoodman]

As it is, Psionics and ToB are the two areas of D&D in which my knowledge is very weak.

Just because it's easy to miss, always remember that a character can only spend a number of power points on a power equal to his level. There are a few things that change that (including the Wilder's Wild Surge ability), but in general it's best that you remember that rule lest someone that 'forgets' it try to toss around a 20d6 energy blast at 1st level by blowing all his power points for the day in one round illegally.



But yeah, on topic, keep it how you have - it's easiest for you, and it'll be better for the game as a whole so you don't have to add in a bunch of psionic foes just to deal with one guy.

[tyckspoon]

Psi-Arcane transparency should absolutely be held for purposes of Spell/Psi resistance and dispelling; the game balance goes all to hell otherwise. If you feel like making them a little different, consider doing it by making Know: Psi/Psicraft not apply to Know:Arcane/Spellcraft and vice-versa; the powers psionicists and arcane spellcasters use are ultimately pretty similar, so they can interfere with each other, but the means they use to get there are so distinct that they require two different fields of study (alternately, let them apply at a penalty so the Wizard isn't *completely* useless when a psionic effect shows up, and the Psion isn't utterly stuck when [probably far more common] spells are in play.)

[herrhauptmann]

So Know:Psi/Psicraft != Know:Arcane/Spellcraft. Should that include when the psionic power is identical to an arcane spell? (The only one that comes to mind right now was a psion in my last game had Plane Shift and Teleport, but he didn't read the spell descriptions so he got hosed when trying to use them)

But if a wizard wants to cast a Dispel Magic to cancel out the Psions power as he casts it, it should still work, right? Or is this the case you're referring to when you say:

let them apply at a penalty so the Wizard isn't *completely* useless when a psionic effect shows up, and the Psion isn't utterly stuck when [probably far more common] spells are in play.

RTG: You're right about not wanting to include a bunch of monsters specifically to beat one character. I don't like having to make encounters (or alter monsters) specifically to make things tougher for one or more specific characters. At this level, it feels too much like 'DM being a ****.' Now if there was a BBEG who was constantly being foiled by the party, then I could understand some encounters tailored specifically to party makeup, but at the moment there's no boss character, so there's no point to it.

Thanks for your help everyone.

[tyckspoon]

I meant the first thing; your Wizards might not recognize the exact effects of Telempathic Projection or understand the significance of crystals to psionics (Psicraft and Know:Psi checks, respectively), but if there's something going on they want to disrupt they can still try to knock it out with a Dispel Magic as normal. Conversely, the Psion might not know how Familiars work, but if he wants to break a spell he can do it with Dispel Psionics exactly as if he was countering a power.

The penalty thing is an option to consider if you don't want to make knowing about arcana and psionics completely separate (which you might not want to do if, for example, you're using psionic creatures but nobody in the group actually does have Know: Psi and Psicraft.) In this case, you could say Know: Arcana and Spellcraft involve enough knowledge about psionics (comparative studies courses, perhaps, involving the differences and similarities between stuff like Grease and Psionic Grease, or Inertial Armor and Mage Armor) to make a check... but since it isn't the primary field of study, the check is penalized at whatever value seems right. That would make it desirable to have a specialist along, but the group also wouldn't be going into psionic situations completely blind.

[Sinfire Titan]

It should also be noted that Psionics do not suffer Arcane Spell Failure. They are not arcane in origin, and do not have somatic or verbal components. Ever.

[Xuincherguixe]

One way of handling things, is that dispel magic has a penalty against a psionic power, and Spell Resistance is a bit easier to penetrate with psionics. But not a great deal so. And of course, the other way around as well.

This reflects that while similar, the two aren't identical. It does still have a tendency to make Psionic characters fairly powerful though.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I generally think of Psionics as no more different from Arcane than Divine is. If something works against the power handed down by the gods, and the raw power of the cosmos, it works against the power of the mind as well(Dispel X, SR, UMD). If it doesn't work against both(Know:X), it doesn't work on Psionics. That seems IMHO most balanced, and works better for me thematically than: being a first level Psion when the dragon has no resistance against your purple crystal power. Evokes too much of older, poorer, editions.

[potatocubed]

Because I started with 2nd edition psionics, the idea that psionics and magic interact so transparently has always bothered me - so I use the Psionics Are Different houserules.

The thing to remember if you do this is that you're going to have to totally rework the setting to make psionicists as un/common as wizards, and power resistance as un/common as spell resistance - otherwise the psion is going to steamroller most encounters. If you're cool with doing that, then the game balance issue stops being a problem. So long as PR and psionic enemies are as common as SR and magic-using enemies, you should be fine.

[Yuki Akuma]

Because I started with 2nd edition psionics, the idea that psionics and magic interact so transparently has always bothered me - so I use the Psionics Are Different houserules.

The thing to remember if you do this is that you're going to have to totally rework the setting to make psionicists as un/common as wizards, and power resistance as un/common as spell resistance - otherwise the psion is going to steamroller most encounters. If you're cool with doing that, then the game balance issue stops being a problem. So long as PR and psionic enemies are as common as SR and magic-using enemies, you should be fine.

This is exactly the reason why psionics and magic are transparent. In older editions, they weren't, so psionics was incredibly broken.

[Devils_Advocate]

There's no good reason for psionics to function any more differently from arcane and divine magic than arcane magic and divine magic function differently from each other.

Now, it does work more differently, but there's no good reason for it.

The default transparency rule is that magic effects psionics and vice versa the same way that magic effects magic and psionics effects psionics. However, they interact with other things differently: Psionics has its own skills, feats, and "casting" system that are distinct from the ones for magic. Psionic things are often obvious conterparts to magic things, but subtly different in their specific details. (For example, a psionicist can obtain a special pet rock that functions in many ways like a familiar. No, really.)

The basic principle at work here is very simple, but hard to explain due to word overloading. See, a wizard does a series of intricate gestures and incantations to fill a slot in his mind. Later, he adds the final components, the slot gets emptied, and a supernatural effect occurs. The original gestures and incantations, the spell slot, the magical information that fills the spell slot, the casting, and the supernatural effect can each be called a "spell", and relate to a particular "spell" (e.g. fly).

For psionics, all of the means of producing supernatural effects are different, but in the end, it's still a supernatural effect that gets produced, so there's no reason to treat it differently from one produced in a different way. So, while everything leading up to them is rightly treated as different, a manifested psionic grease should interact with everything exactly the same way that a cast grease does.

... It actually doesn't, since it's still associated with the Psicraft skill and the Metacreativity discipline instead of the Spellcraft skill and the Conjuration school. But there's no good reason for that.

[Yuki Akuma]

Psionic powers are actually spell-like abilities, so they shouldn't interact with things exactly like spells. ;)

(And they don't. You can't counter them, for instance.)

[potatocubed]

This is exactly the reason why psionics and magic are transparent. In older editions, they weren't, so psionics was incredibly broken.

This is true only if psionics is inherently more powerful than magic. My argument is that the thing that makes psionics inherently more powerful is the lack of general psionics lying around most campaign worlds. If psions are as common as wizards or clerics, and psionic items are as potent and common as magic items, then non-transparency is not an issue. (The Dark Sun setting, for example.)

Also, consider the opposite case: a world of psions with a single wizard. Assuming non-transparency, who is overpowered here?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

This is true only if psionics is inherently more powerful than magic. My argument is that the thing that makes psionics inherently more powerful is the lack of general psionics lying around most campaign worlds. If psions are as common as wizards or clerics, and psionic items are as potent and common as magic items, then non-transparency is not an issue. (The Dark Sun setting, for example.)

Also, consider the opposite case: a world of psions with a single wizard. Assuming non-transparency, who is overpowered here?

The single Wizard, though that has more to do with the OP of Wizards than transparency. In a fight between a Wizard and a Psion, the Wizard comes out on top.

[Sinfire Titan]

The single Wizard, though that has more to do with the OP of Wizards than transparency. In a fight between a Wizard and a Psion, the Wizard comes out on top.

While the exception is DD spells VS DD powers, this statement holds true for damn near everything in DnD. Wizard>>>>>>>>>Anything that isn't in the Big 6. And even amongst the Big 6, only the Cleric and Druid really have what it takes to fight a Wizard (assuming equal levels of optimization, the fight can go either way).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

While the exception is DD spells VS DD powers, this statement holds true for damn near everything in DnD. Wizard>>>>>>>>>Anything that isn't in the Big 6. And even amongst the Big 6, only the Cleric and Druid really have what it takes to fight a Wizard (assuming equal levels of optimization, the fight can go either way).

Actually, ignoring S-to-P Euredite(because I don't actually know what he is), and level 20, Archivist and Artificer have more of a chance than Cleric or Druid against a Wizard. Arcane spells are why the Wizard wins, and those 2 get access to the Wizard's spell list, through various tricks, meaning that anything he does they can do, with a bit of work. The Cleric and Druid however, are limited to Divine spells(and the occasional Domain), meaning that while I would say that through most of the game they're on the Wizard's level, 9th level Arcane just wins out, and they can't deal with it.

[Chronos]

Because I started with 2nd edition psionics, the idea that psionics and magic interact so transparently has always bothered me - so I use the Psionics Are Different houserules.

Wait, so you're saying that you don't like 3rd edition psionics because it's too different from 2nd edition psionics? I started with 2nd edition, too, and even have the psionics book around here somewhere, and to me, anything that's different from 2nd edition psionic rules is probably a good start. They got just about everything wrong with it in 2nd edition.

On the question of psicraft vs. spellcraft, it probably does make sense to use either transparently to recognize an effect (at least, an effect that could be produced by either), such as the Grease vs. Psionic Grease example, but you probably shouldn't be able to use them interchangeably for identifying a power/spell as it's being used (a wizard might recognize the hand gestures another wizard uses to cast a Grease spell, but he probably doesn't recognize the distinctive glimmer and scent of a psion manifesting Psionic Grease. And for effects that don't have direct equivalents, you might want to assign a penalty: A wizard probably won't know as much about an astral construct as a psion would, but he can probably figure out more about it than the fighter can.

[Sinfire Titan]

Actually, ignoring S-to-P Euredite(because I don't actually know what he is), and level 20, Archivist and Artificer have more of a chance than Cleric or Druid against a Wizard. Arcane spells are why the Wizard wins, and those 2 get access to the Wizard's spell list, through various tricks, meaning that anything he does they can do, with a bit of work. The Cleric and Druid however, are limited to Divine spells(and the occasional Domain), meaning that while I would say that through most of the game they're on the Wizard's level, 9th level Arcane just wins out, and they can't deal with it.

The Artificer can't use Greater Celerity with Wands, and Staves suck hard. That's the main reason the Wizard beats him. The Archivist does have access to it, so it really comes down to who wins Init (which the Wizard has him beat in, as the Wizard has access to Nerveskitter, something exclusive to Sor/Wiz). Remember that a lot of Sor/Wiz spells are difficult to get for an Archivist. They can get Abjuration, Necromancy, and I think one other school through a Cleric variant, Bard spells from Complete Champion's Divine Bard, and a few spells from Favored Soul (Dragon Magic), but odds are they have a hard time grabbing the really powerful ones.

I mean, seriously, what Favored Soul is going to use a 3rd level spell known to learn a 1st level Wizard spell when he can just learn Celerity?


Spell to Power is on the Wizard main site. Near the very bottom of the article. As I've pointed out, it's the most broken thing for them (Arcane Fusion+Access to any spell of 7th level or lower=Ability to manifest 2 or more 7th level and lower spells per Standard action and only pay for an 8th level power, and bypassing their Unique Powers/Day).

[Devils_Advocate]

Personally, I don't really like the idea that it's possible to recognize that something is magical just by looking at it. Yeah, there might be tell-tale signs in some cases, but not always. So I'd probably just remove that use of Spellcraft and Psicraft. But that's me.

Psionic powers are actually spell-like abilities, so they shouldn't interact with things exactly like spells. ;)

(And they don't. You can't counter them, for instance.)

(Ah, but you counter a spell before it comes into effect, so that fits with what I said. )