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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Mad Wizard's Avatar

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    Default Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    This may seem like a strange set of circumstances, but it was coming up a lot at my last gaming session. One of my players was playing a Battlerager fighter with Dwarf Stoneblood who loved to use invigorating abilities. Often, he would be hit, gain 7 temporary HP from battlerager, then hit an enemy with Crushing Surge, gaining another 8 (which specifically stack with the seven) for a total of 15. He would then be hit again. It was important which of these temporary HP went away first, because it would change how many he had left. Say he was hit for 9 damage. If this was taken away from the 7 gained from the battlerager feature first, he would be left with 13 (15 initial - 9 damage + 7 battlerager). If they were taken away from the Crushing Surge hit points, he would he left with 7 (15 initial - 9 = 6, these hit points are from the bloodrager feature, so they don't stack with the 7 he would gain, so he simply goes back to 7 temporary hp). Thus, my question is how do you decide which temporary hit points go away first? Is this actually written anywhere in any of the books?
    Long and complicated, I know, but an answer would be great.
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    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Logically, the newest temporary HP would go away first. Think of it like a sandwich: the bread on the bottom is regular HP, and you put a slice of cheese on top. Then you put a piece of lettuce on top of that. You can't get to the cheese without removing the lettuce. Since temp HP is a buffer for regular HP, it makes sense that the newer buffer would buffer the old one.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    You don't get two kinds of temp. HP pools. If the triggered ability states it stacks with temporary HP, you add them. If not, you take the larger amount, no matter where that temporary HP came from originally.
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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    This is kind of hard to explain, but I'll give it a shot. So you are saying he has 15 Temp HP when he's attacked the second time, You deal 9 damage, reducing him to 6 Temp HP. He gains 7 Temp every time you hit him, so you basically after your initial attack, you have to deal more than 7 damage. Since the Temp HP gained through damage is just normal Temp HP if it is Higher than his current amount he just replenishes the lost amount.

    So as I stated before after your initial attack he gains a minimum of Resist 7, so you will have to deal at least 8 to actually hurt him... Yeah, Battlerager Vigor is nasty.

    I run a Warforged Battlerager Vigor Fighter, I only gain 4 Temp HP per attack, but that's 4 less off my actual HP.

    DM attacks BVR gains 7 Temp HP
    BVR attacks DM gains 8 Temp HP
    BVR total 15 Temp HP
    DM attacks BVR for 9, BVR now has 6 Temp HP; BVR gives him 7
    Total Temp HP 7
    Last edited by NPCMook; 2009-05-24 at 10:34 AM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Mad Wizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by The New Bruceski View Post
    You don't get two kinds of temp. HP pools. If the triggered ability states it stacks with temporary HP, you add them. If not, you take the larger amount, no matter where that temporary HP came from originally.
    Ah, of course. Thanks.
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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Player X gets 5 temp HP.
    Player X gets hit for 3 damage down to 2 temp HP.
    Player X does something to gain 9 temp HP.
    Player X now has 6 temp HP.

    9-5=4+current temp HP(2)=6

    That is how I see it so you always take the great temp HP amount, but don't get the full HP from it if you already have some temp HP.

    Player X does something to gain 9 temp HP, again. Gets nothing cause he already has a 9 temp HP. To gain any more temp HP before the current ones are lost they would have to do something that gains 10 or more temp HP to increase the current amount of temp HP.

    Temp HP is a lot of accounting this way, but always keeps you with the max temp HP gained until they run out.

    Otherwise you can just say new temp HP do nothing no matter how many they are until you run out. Which would mean having 1 temp HP and gaining 20 temp HP, means you still only have 1 temp HP.

    It would be up to the DM how to treat this so that temp HP does not stack.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by shadzar View Post
    Player X gets 5 temp HP.
    Player X gets hit for 3 damage down to 2 temp HP.
    Player X does something to gain 9 temp HP.
    Player X now has 6 temp HP.

    9-5=4+current temp HP(2)=6
    Not quite, I think. When you gain temp hp, you should always end up with at least as much as you gained.

    Player X gets 5 temp HP.
    Player X gets hit for 3 damage down to 2 temp HP.
    Player X does something to gain 9 temp HP.
    Player X now has 9 temp HP.

    9-2=7+current temp HP(2)=9

    From the original case,

    15 temp hp
    gets hit for 9 damage, reduces thp to 6. Gains 7 thp, but already has 6, so just goes to 7, which are now considered all from battle vigor (think of the new thp as overwriting the old). Thus, use another invigorating power, and it stacks.

    On the other hand, if he were at 15 thp, and took 6 damage, he would be down to 9 thp, 7 of which would be from battle vigor. Thus, if he gains 8 from an invogorating power, he'd only add 6 to his current 9, since only 7 of the current 9 is from vigor.

    But wait.
    When you gain temporary hit points by hitting with an attack that has the invigorating keyword, those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary hit points you already have.
    So I think I'm wrong in that last paragraph. If you're at 9, and you hit with the invigorating power for 8 thp, then you will be at 17. I guess, technically, if you keep hitting with invigorating attacks, and never take damage, you're thp will keep going up.

    Man, what were Rob Heinsoo, David Noonan, Chris Sims, and Robert J. Schwalb smoking when they came up with THIS idea?
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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Shular View Post
    Not quite, I think. When you gain temp hp, you should always end up with at least as much as you gained.

    Player X gets 5 temp HP.
    Player X gets hit for 3 damage down to 2 temp HP.
    Player X does something to gain 9 temp HP.
    Player X now has 9 temp HP.

    9-2=7+current temp HP(2)=9
    But that would nullify that you ever took damage and lost any temp HP.

    You cannot heal temp HP, and that is what you would be doing.

    You just get the bigger of the two and still have to take away the damage already to your temp HP that you have already taken.

    Basically you stacked temp HP partially. Giving the temp HP total to start to be 12 rather than the 5 or 9 that was gained from whatever gave them to you.

    You cannot exceed the most temp HP form a single source, unless the "thing" specifically says you can stack the temp HP.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Oh, as a suggestion for how to track this stuff, get some poker chips. Each chip is one point of thp. Saw some guys doing this at Game Day and thought 'man, that IS effective'. They were also using chips for action points and healing surges.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by shadzar View Post
    But that would nullify that you ever took damage and lost any temp HP.

    You cannot heal temp HP, and that is what you would be doing.

    You just get the bigger of the two and still have to take away the damage already to your temp HP that you have already taken.

    Basically you stacked temp HP partially. Giving the temp HP total to start to be 12 rather than the 5 or 9 that was gained from whatever gave them to you.

    You cannot exceed the most temp HP form a single source, unless the "thing" specifically says you can stack the temp HP.
    This is confusing and wrong.

    You seem to be treating Temp HP as a HP pool, and getting new Temp HP can only increase the size of the pool. So, according to your method. If you got 9 Temp HP, lost 9, and then gained 8... you would end up with 0.

    That's not how Temp HP works, it is also not how it is supposed to work. Temp HP are not a pool, and getting new Temp HP does not increase the maximum pool size, rather, it gives you new Temp HP.

    If you get 9 temp HP, and then take 10 damage. You get rid of all your Temp HP and take 1 damage to your real HP. At this point you can forget you ever had any Temp HP.

    When you get Temp HP. You take either the amount you got, or the amount you already have. How much "damage you have taken to your Temp HP" does not matter. You don't take damage to your Temp HP, you just lose the Temp HP you have. Then they are gone, and you forget about them.

    Your method is not just unnecessarily complicated, it also nerfs abilities such as Sacred Flame or every single invigorating power ever into near uselessness.

    I'm curious how you arrived at the conclusion you did.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by shadzar View Post
    But that would nullify that you ever took damage and lost any temp HP.

    You cannot heal temp HP, and that is what you would be doing.

    You just get the bigger of the two and still have to take away the damage already to your temp HP that you have already taken.

    Basically you stacked temp HP partially. Giving the temp HP total to start to be 12 rather than the 5 or 9 that was gained from whatever gave them to you.

    You cannot exceed the most temp HP form a single source, unless the "thing" specifically says you can stack the temp HP.
    You do not heal temp HP but replace them. If you have 2 different abilities that give you temp HP 1 Invigorating and one not. Say

    X Strike +5 Temp HP
    Y Strike +4 Temp HP Keyword invigorating.

    Round 1
    You do X Strike. You gain 5 Temp HP.
    Attacker misses.
    Round 2
    You do X Strike again. You gain no Temp HP as you at 5 what the new one give you.
    Attacker hits for 4 You now have 1 Temp HP.
    Round 3
    You do X Strike. You gain 5 Temp HP, but you go up to 5 Temp HP not 6.
    Attacker misses. Again, he sucks.
    Round 4
    You do Y Strike. You gain 4 Temp HP. Taking you to 9 as it is invigorating.
    Attacker hits for 3 You now have 6 Temp HP.
    Round 5
    You do Y Strike. You gain 4 Temp HP. Taking you to 10 as it is invigorating.
    Attacker misses
    Round 6
    You do X Strike. You gain 0 Temp HP from the attack, as your already at 10 Temp HP. If you did Y Strike you would go to 14 Temp HP due to invigorating.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Gain temp hp = You now have the higher of your current temphp value and the amount gained.

    Gain temp hp with invigorating power = You add the two numbers instead of taking the higher of the two.

    So, if a fighter is gaining say, 3 temps from BRV while getting hit with a melee attack, it means "If you have less than 3 temps, you now have 3 temps." Invigorating only means "stacks on acquisition". The temps aren't still considered invigorating or not once you actually have them.

    If a fighter gets 3 temps from BRV from a melee attack, then gets hit with a melee attack that deals 3 or less damage, the fighter loses that temp hp, then immediately regains it. The temps from BRV are a result of the hit, not hp loss... But they don't stack... So if you already have 5 temps and get hit for 2 damage, and BRV adds 3, you have 3, as the temp hp value becomes "the higher of 3 & 3" which is 3.

    This is why fighters in campaigns I'm in tend to take BRV, but no invigorating powers. They allow BRV to be a little damage buffer, nothing more.
    Last edited by Thajocoth; 2009-05-24 at 08:03 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Temporary HP Oddities [4e]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thajocoth View Post
    This is why fighters in campaigns I'm in tend to take BRV, but no invigorating powers. They allow BRV to be a little damage buffer, nothing more.
    Yes, but invigorating powers let you increase that buffer ever more. The downside is the fighter has to be less of a secondary striker and more of a secondary status-effect-dealer.

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