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    Default The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    The Demonologist

    Lurik Tertos and his summoned demon, Bob


    HD: d4

    Requirements
    Alignment: Chaotic Evil
    Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks
    Feats: Spell focus (conjuration), Augmented Summons, Evil Brand
    Special: Must be Able to cast 6 spells of the conjuration school, one of which must be at least 3rd level.

    Class skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int).
    Skill points per level: 2+Int modifier

    {table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Spellcasting
    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Charm demon|--
    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Quasit familiar|+1 level of spellcasting class
    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Summoning Mastery +2|+1 level of spellcasting class
    4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Resistances|+1 level of spellcasting class
    5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Poison Immunity|+1 level of spellcasting class
    6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Summoning Mastery +3|+1 level of spellcasting class
    7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Hold Demon|+1 level of spellcasting class
    8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Telepathy|+1 level of spellcasting class
    9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Summoning Mastery +4|+1 level of spellcasting class
    10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Dominate demon|+1 level of spellcasting class
    [/table]

    Weapon and Armor proficiencies: Demonologists gain no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

    Spells per day/Spells Known: At every demonologist level gained except first the demonologist gains the spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) of a previous spell-casting level class. If the demonologist has more than one level of a previous spell-casting class, it must choose which one to advance in. These levels do not give other benefits of advancing in a spellcasting class, such as rebuking, bonus feats and the like. Although familiar benefits do stack, see below.

    Charm Demon (Sp): A 1st level Demonologist can attempt to charm a chaotic evil outsider, as described in the charm person spell once per day. The demon does not get to use its spell resistance, thought it can make a saving throw as normal (DC 10+demonologist level+Cha modifier).

    Quasit Familiar (Ex): A 2nd level demonologist gains a quasit as a familiar, whether he wants it or not. If the demonologist already has a familiar, the quasit devours it and takes its place, but the character suffers no experience point loss. The quasit is treated as a normal familiar, using the class level of the demonologist as the masters level.

    Summoning Mastery (Su): When a demonologist of 3rd level or higher casts a summon monster spell, it is treated as the equivalent spell of two levels higher for purpouses of summoning chaotic evil creatures. For example, a demonologist refers to the summon monter IV list for chaotic evil outsiders when casting summon monster II. At 6th level, the demonologist refers to the summoning list three levels higher than the one for the summon monster spell he is casting. At 9th level, the demonologist refers to the list four levels higher.

    Resistances (Su): A demonologist who reaches 4th level gains a resistance to acid, cold, and fire 10 and resistance to electricity 20.

    Poison Immunity (Ex): A 5th level demonologist is immune to all non-magical poisons. At 9th level it is immune to all forms of poison, including magical ones.

    Hold demon (Sp): A 7th level Demonologist can attemptto holda chaotic evil outsider, as described in the hold perosn spell, once per day. The demon does not get to use it's spell resistance, though it can make a saving throw as normal (DC 10+demonologist level+Cha modifier)

    Telepathy (Su): An 8th level demonologist can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language, just as a tanar'ri can.

    Dominate Demon (Sp): A 10th level demonologist can attempt to dominate a chaotic evil outsider, as described in the demoniate person spell, once per day. The demon does not get its spell resistance, but it can make a saving throw as normal (DC 10+demonolgist level+Cha modifier).
    ---
    I'm not exactly sure if posting this suits legallity, but if it doesn't I'l edit it enough to make sure it is.l
    Last edited by Krimm_Blackleaf; 2006-11-21 at 07:56 PM.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    I'm going to be honest, a demonologist doesn't need to be chaotic evil, they certainly need to be chaotic, but say what if they wished to summon demons to rid the world of them, a CG paladin could possibly pick up lvls in it... true most will be CE but don't be fronting the CN's and CG's... ;)

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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Though wouldn''t that make the Paladin asosiate with an evil force and lose him his abilities? I'd say just a nongood, nonlawful. You're still bringing demons, Chaos and Evil embodied into the material plane.
    Will be edited by Ryuuk : Sometime in the future.

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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Conceiveably, a Wizard-10/Demonologist-10 could cast Summon Monster IX, and go after a CE outsider. I'm curious - what CE outsiders are on the Summon Monster XIII list?

    Okay, granted, the standard use at higher levels would be Summon Monster VIII to grab 1d4+1 CE outsiders off the Summon Monster IX list, or an Empowered Summon Monster VII to grab 1d3*1.5 CE outsiders off the Smmon Monster IX list, but still.....
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckag

    To be honet, and I could be missing something, but I don't see anything diffrent with this prestiege class from the older one.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckag

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran
    To be honet, and I could be missing something, but I don't see anything diffrent with this prestiege class from the older one.
    spell progression?(biggest difference)
    less skill points?
    different energy resistance rates?
    different requirements?
    probably more that i'm not remembering off the top of my head. I didn't make this to be a blatent variation and a completely different thing; it's more of a fixed version of the bovd one
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckag

    Quote Originally Posted by Krimm_Blackleaf

    spell progression?(biggest difference)
    less skill points?
    different energy resistance rates?
    different requirements?
    probably more that i'm not remembering off the top of my head. I didn't make this to be a blatent variation and a completely different thing; it's more of a fixed version of the bovd one

    Hate to break it to you fella but you didn't fix anything. Malign Spell Focus
    Requirement: Any evil alignment.

    So...you can't be Chaotic Neutral and still be in this class. Hell you can't even apply for it in the first place without being Chaotic Evil.

    The diffrent resistance rates: You um...made it worse.

    Normal Demonologists: At 4th level you gain the resistance to Cold, Fire, and Acid 10 and Electricity Resistence 20.

    Your Demonologist: At 4th level you gain Cold, Fire, and Acid Resistence 4 and Electricity Resistence 8. It will only reach the SAME level of the normal class's resistance's at level 10 in demonology.

    As for the spells part. I'm not quite sure which is better, yours or the original. The original gets spells that a wizard or sorcerer can't normally get that fit the class's flavor, but for the most part are kinda lack luster.
    On yours the class loses flavor to the point it seems like a regular spellcasting prestiege class but gains more powerful combat spells then they would normally get, but thats aside the point. Demonologists don't directly fight anyway, they have demons for that. Its the entire point of the class.

    For the skills I could see why you lowered them but they should probaly stay where they are at 4+INT modifer. People who deal with demons have to know what their talking about and with demons that means knowing alot about demons, planes, how to tempt demons, artifacts of evil, etc. etc. Which seems to me like they need to specialize in knowledge skill's more then wizards and need the points. I do like the cut down on class skills though. Some of those where superflous.

    On the prequisetes for the class (Feat wise again) I would only change one thing. The Spell Focus Conjuration. I would keep the evil brand on that one. The good summoning spells like Summon Planar Ally and the diplomatic portion of Planar Binding require Diplomacy like checks where the Brand would help. Augment Summons is better then Sacrifical Mastery though. I don't see much point in a Demonologist sacrificing people for any point besides flavor though. The souls they need for spells can be acquired with spells and items instead of sacrifice.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Malign spell focus: damn, didn't think about that....

    Some of the changes i made for resistances were because i thought an automatic resistance to all those energies was a little powerful and unrealistic.

    I changed the spell progression from the demonologist spell list was because lots of people, including myself hated it because you got a few low level wizard spells, and a small list of demonologist spells. Not to mention it required decent charisma (only a problem if you're not a sorcerer).

    As for the skills, I made it more like a normal spellcasting class. I think the original 4+Int modifier was more for the bards who took this class; I'd like to make this version more gauided toward pure casters (or clerics). But it might be true that they could use more skill points except that the only skills a demonologists would really really need flavorwise are knowledge (the planes),
    knowledge (arcana) and MAYBE knowledge (religion).

    Spell focus (conjuration) is a prerequisite for sugmented summons, I just felt it was necesarry to add it in incase someone forgot that. But you're right that Evil brand makes quite a bit more sense than I thought it did when i remade it; which could actually replace Malign spell focus and retain the need for an evil alignment.

    As for anything that makes it seem like i weakened the class I just wanna pack as many levels of spell progression in as I can...I'm a spell-level whore you see. So if you suggest more spell levels, like say full, I'm all up for that.

    Thank you very much for your input

    Edit: In fact I think I will make the spellcasting progression a little higher, just to see how that plays out.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    *bump*
    i feel it needs more input
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Krimm_Blackleaf
    *bump*
    i feel it needs more input
    So a Wizard 5 / Demonologist 10/Archmage 5 casts as a Wiz-19, and has access to Summon Monster IX.

    Summoning Mastry adds +4 to the list he draws from when summoning CE critters.

    What CE critters are on the Summon Monster X, XI, XII, and XIII lists? It WILL come up eventually if this sees high-level play....
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
    So a Wizard 5 / Demonologist 10/Archmage 5 casts as a Wiz-19, and has access to Summon Monster IX.

    Summoning Mastry adds +4 to the list he draws from when summoning CE critters.

    What CE critters are on the Summon Monster X, XI, XII, and XIII lists? It WILL come up eventually if this sees high-level play....
    yeah, I thought about that...I'm about to create a way of making using summon spells beyond 9th level, like say more demons than the normal use of summoning more creatures.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Well here's another speculation on the previous thought

    Summon Monster X
    Conjuration (summoning) [see text for summon monster I]
    Level: See demonologist's summoning mastery
    Componants: V, S, F/DF
    Casting time: 1 round
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 feet apart when summoned.
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell resistance: No

    This spell functions like summoner monster I, except that you can summon one monster from the 10th-level list, 1d3 of the same kind from the 9th level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower level list.


    Summon Monster XI
    Conjuration (summoning) [see text for summon monster I]
    Level: See demonologist's summoning mastery
    Componants: V, S, F/DF
    Casting time: 1 round
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 feet apart when summoned.
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell resistance: No

    This spell functions like summoner monster I, except that you can summon one monster from the 11th-level list, 1d3 of the same kind from the 10th level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower level list.


    Summon Monster XII
    Conjuration (summoning) [see text for summon monster I]
    Level: See demonologist's summoning mastery
    Componants: V, S, F/DF
    Casting time: 1 round
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 feet apart when summoned.
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell resistance: No

    This spell functions like summoner monster I, except that you can summon one monster from the 12th-level list, 1d3 of the same kind from the 11th level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower level list.


    Summon Monster XIII
    Conjuration (summoning) [see text for summon monster I]
    Level: See demonologist's summoning mastery
    Componants: V, S, F/DF
    Casting time: 1 round
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 feet apart when summoned.
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell resistance: No

    This spell functions like summoner monster I, except that you can summon one monster from the 13th-level list, 1d3 of the same kind from the 12th level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower level list.


    Summoned Monsters

    10th level
    Glabrezu CE

    11th level
    Nalfeshnee CE

    12th level
    Maralith CE

    13th level
    Balor CE
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    bump
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    I hope it's not frowned upon to resurrect this thread, but I'd really like input on the 'beyond 9th level' summon spells for the demonologist. I think it wasn't answered properly because it was sent somewhere in the back of the pages when the Homebrew design page was made and everthing was moved. And then lost to time when the forums moved.

    So yeah, please give me your input.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Oh wow....um. Those extra spells for the demonologist are out of whack, keeping with the original pattern of the spells.

    Alright. Those first two look all right, the ones for the Glab and Nalf, but the last two are big no-nos. Not for pre-epic. Let me give a good example.

    The epic spell Dragon Knight: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/dragonKnight.htm

    Requires epic levels and epic spell slots and addiotional casters to summon a CR 15 dragon. A 20th level demonologist blows that out of the water by summoning a melee mastered CR 18 demon. With the highest form, which calls a balor, you can summon 1d3 mariliths. Three CR 18 creatures with one spell, which you can cast at least one more time at 20th level is a bit overpowered. Any munchkin summoner will dive on this class just for that ability.

    Maybe you should try for templated verisons of the monsters on the lower lists before going for uber-demons.

    Better yet, to remove some of the problem entirely, remove Summoning Mastery +4, move Dominate Demon down a level, and for the capstone ability put summon marilith.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Hmm, I had a feeling that was a bit too powerful, but there is the option of just summoning 1d4 creatures from the Summon Monster IX list and so on. Even without the ability to summon creatures from above 9th level it's still a good ability. So summon monster's 10-13 could and probably should be ignored. I only tried to find demons going up the list according to the CR's of demons of lower level lists.
    And come to think of it, what is the duration of Dragon Knight? I don't have my Epic level's hanbook on hand. Because if my feelings are correct and dragon knight is a duration of 24 hours or more it's more balanced because Summon Monster 13 would still only last 2 minutes.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    I don;t know how long Dragon Knight lasts but you have to consider all of the classes that can take this Prestiege class. Like clerics. Their one Persistent spell/Divine Metamagic away of a virtually permenant higher demon servant.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    I don;t know how long Dragon Knight lasts but you have to consider all of the classes that can take this Prestiege class. Like clerics. Their one Persistent spell/Divine Metamagic away of a virtually permenant higher demon servant.
    True but divine metamagic can cheese anything.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Ok...I looked over dragon knight in the epic level handbook (Which actually does have a duration of 20 rounds). So far it seems to me that it's balanced for a PrC like this to summon a Balor at 17th level for 17 rounds is balanced compared to dragon knight.
    The spellcraft DC is 38. Very easy for a wizard to do at much less than epic levels. Increase the dragon summoned to a CR 20 and it increases the DC to 48. Still, easy for an epic mage. Now take the other casters away and it's a bit hard to do, DC 78; hard but doable. But this is all from your standard mage. The demonologist ONLY summons CE outsiders and is a class designed specifically for this kind of thing. Considering all factors it is a bit more powerful than another conjurer of it's level, but not by too much...at least I think so.
    Last edited by Krimm_Blackleaf; 2006-11-21 at 02:25 AM.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    I am the only one seeing this as broken? It gets full spell advancement of a wizard, telepathy (well, this could be done with mindbender dip but you would need to fill a lot of prereqs...), poison immunity and a lot of other class abilities. What do you give in exchange?

    Okay, I belong to the school that wiz/sorcerer PrCs should always lose casting if they gain something and this might be balanced compared to some PrCs there, but getting everything a wizard (maybe the most powerful core class) gets and a lot of more seems atleast worth losing 1 spellcasting level at first level or PrC...
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    I am the only one seeing this as broken? It gets full spell advancement of a wizard, telepathy (well, this could be done with mindbender dip but you would need to fill a lot of prereqs...), poison immunity and a lot of other class abilities. What do you give in exchange?

    Okay, I belong to the school that wiz/sorcerer PrCs should always lose casting if they gain something and this might be balanced compared to some PrCs there, but getting everything a wizard (maybe the most powerful core class) gets and a lot of more seems atleast worth losing 1 spellcasting level at first level or PrC...
    Done. Thanks for the input.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    I am the only one seeing this as broken? It gets full spell advancement of a wizard, telepathy (well, this could be done with mindbender dip but you would need to fill a lot of prereqs...), poison immunity and a lot of other class abilities. What do you give in exchange?

    Okay, I belong to the school that wiz/sorcerer PrCs should always lose casting if they gain something and this might be balanced compared to some PrCs there, but getting everything a wizard (maybe the most powerful core class) gets and a lot of more seems atleast worth losing 1 spellcasting level at first level or PrC...
    Your missing that fact that all of these special abilities tie into one specific creature type. In a campaign thats almost outsiderless the only way a PC would be able to use these abilities is by summoning a demon themself. Not to mention that...huh...whats the name of that one spell where you can't summon creatures of an opposing alignment in a certain area? That completely kills this class except for pre-summoned chaotic evil outsiders.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Your missing that fact that all of these special abilities tie into one specific creature type. In a campaign thats almost outsiderless the only way a PC would be able to use these abilities is by summoning a demon themself. Not to mention that...huh...whats the name of that one spell where you can't summon creatures of an opposing alignment in a certain area? That completely kills this class except for pre-summoned chaotic evil outsiders.

    Yes, but would such PrC be taken in campaign in which it is next to useless? It would propably taken by those who benefit most from it...
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    A simple protection from evil or protection from chaos makes you completely invulnrable to this class one main focus.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    Yes, but would such PrC be taken in campaign in which it is next to useless? It would propably taken by those who benefit most from it...
    I've taken the original demonologist class into campaigns where its next to useless (no demons) and still found it a fun expierence. Besides, you don't always know whats going to happen in a campaign so taking a gamble on the demonologist class, losing two spellcasting levels, and then never having the focus manifest kills the fun of a player. At least without taking off the spellcasting levels you still have full spell progression.


    And also as Krimm noted, a simple protection from evil or chaos spell completely decimates this class. Except for the summons that have spell-like abilities.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Hmm... As such, maybe it would be logical to remove some of their abilities to add some kind of way for their summons to get past such spells (CL check from demonologist against the one casting protection spell or something?) or such?
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    Hmm... As such, maybe it would be logical to remove some of their abilities to add some kind of way for their summons to get past such spells (CL check from demonologist against the one casting protection spell or something?) or such?
    Hmm...I don't think it really suits the flavor of the original demonologist. They're just really good at summoning more powerful fiends, not at getting them through defenses. But that would be a good idea for another summoner class.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    The demonologist I made uses this, nothing but demons. Thanks to various monster manuals and the FC1.
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    Default Re: The Demonologist (now with less suckage!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Krimm_Blackleaf View Post
    The demonologist I made uses this, nothing but demons. Thanks to various monster manuals and the FC1.
    There are more demons in Fiend Follo (its a 3.0 book, but it was near the transition to 3.5, thus its like "3.25" and the update is on the net.) and I am assuming the new FC2.
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