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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Chimera

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    Default Trip attacks: too good?

    I have to say tripping someone is almost too good. It's easy to qualify for improved trip and it is resolved as a touch attack which will remove all the ways to prevent an attack in the first place. Add in something like expansion, 18 on STR and a ranged tripping tool and you can just keep hacking at someone without having to worry about retaliation since they need to burn a move action to get up.

    Could someone tell me how to overcome this other than having higher STR/DEX or being bigger?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    daggaz's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    Yeah tripping is GREAT but it has its limitations.

    Obviously size/strength/bodytype come into play, but there is also high mobility + ranged attacks, flight, etherealness, mobs of mooks instead of 1on1, and of course wizards. Who cast nasty spells at you so you dont even get to _think_ about tripping them.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Talic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    In addition, most critters get size and strength in SPADES as you climb the CR ladder. It's a losing battle for the PC to keep up.

    Add in stand still, however...

    Well, there ain't many critters that have a good reflex save (for stand still) AND are big and beefy (for trip resist).

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    Tripping is really, really good, and I have absolutely no problem with that.

    3.5 melee characters have to be good at something.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Keld Denar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    A d20 is a large die. Even with large size, a good str, and Imp Trip, you are still only looking at a +12-14 on the die. Even against something medium sized, you roll low, and your opponent rolls high, and there is a good chance you either lost your attack, or you lost your weapon. Pulling a backup weapon is a pain, and your backup is seldom as powerful as your primary. Plus, monsters tend to scale up faster than PCs. Look at Ogres. They are like, CR2, yet an optimized level 6 tripper would have about a 50/50 shot at it. Thats about a 25% chance of getting disarmed.

    Really, who is it good against? Clerics. Some medium sized humanoids with class levels. And....thats about it.

    And it does take a lot of effort to be REALLY good at it. It takes a lot of cash and resources that could be spent on other things like flight, more damage, evasion abilities, more damage, True Sight, more damage, HP, or more damage. At low levels where its pretty good, you are better off just taking that 2 handed spiked chain and KILLING the offender in 1 hit. At medium levels, its decent, and then at high levels, things end up immune (no legs), huge+, or don't care if they get tripped.

    Seriously, in MOST situations, you are better off just killing it and getting it over with. Otherwise, Standstill is a MUCH better standard of control than Imp Trip is.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Talic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    Ogre. CR 3 20 Str (+5). Large (+4). = +9

    Let's go Orc Psywar, with Improved Trip. Level 2. 24 Str from expansion (+7). Improved Trip (+4), Expansion (+4). = +15

    Table:{table=header]Player Roll | Ogre Roll needed | % Chance
    1 | 8 | 65%
    2 | 9 | 60%
    3 | 10 | 55%
    4 | 11 | 50%
    5 | 12 | 45%
    6 | 13 | 40%
    7 | 14 | 35%
    8 | 15 | 30%
    9 | 15 | 25%
    10 | 16 | 20%
    11 | 17 | 15%
    12 | 18 | 10%
    13 | 19 | 5%
    14 | 20 | 0%
    15 | -- | 5%
    16 | -- | 0%
    17 | -- | 0%
    18 | -- | 0%
    19 | -- | 0%
    20 | -- | 0%[/table]
    The ogre has a 22.75% chance of resisting the trip of this moderately optimized grappler.
    Even without expansion, you have a +10 modifier, which gives the ogre a 38.25% chance to resist the trip.

    So, at level 2, such a character could, for short periods of time, outgrapple a CR 3 ogre 77.25% of the time, and all day, could outgrapple one 61.75% of the time.

    Your numbers are a bit off.

    EDIT: And Stand Still is a good method. But they complement each other well.
    Last edited by Talic; 2009-05-26 at 01:46 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    Well stand still doesn't give you the free attack that trip does, nor does it really do damage. It does however, give you great control and it has a difficult save. But how does stand still increase the chances of a trip attempt?

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    It takes a 13 int (on a fighter!)

    Combat expertise (an utterly worthless feat)

    and improved trip to use. So you're talking about 2 feats and a misplaced dump stat to get it. So yes its supposed to be good.

    And yes, it is, depending on who and what the dm throws at you. It doesn't work on large quadrupeds for instance.

    And yes, melee types need to be good at SOMETHING so the spellcasters can remember they're at the table.
    Last edited by derfenrirwolv; 2009-05-26 at 03:36 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Talic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samb View Post
    Well stand still doesn't give you the free attack that trip does, nor does it really do damage. It does however, give you great control and it has a difficult save. But how does stand still increase the chances of a trip attempt?
    It doesn't. But the creatures resistant to stand still are generally vulnerable to Trip. So they complement each other.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    Trip is very powerful, and fighters need all the help they can get. Read the grease spell and then decide if improved trip is too good.
    "Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."

    -Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kaiyanwang's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    Trip it's fine and need even too much effort.

    Please pimp bull rush!*






    *Dungeoncrasher, maybe?
    Warning: my time zone and internet acces may lead to strange/late post answers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    DMing is how you turn D&D from a game into a hobby.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maroon View Post
    Players can see a story where there isn't one.
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    For 4.0? I expect them to whine to the DM until he makes the big bad boogeyman go away.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    Trip is powerful at low levels. When you get into the double digits trips can be resisted with a Balance check (see Complete Adventurer page 97). Skill check modifiers can increase faster than STR modifiers, so you can make a trip-proof Rogue pretty easily.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kaiyanwang's Avatar

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    Default Re: Trip attacks: too good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Trip is powerful at low levels. When you get into the double digits trips can be resisted with a Balance check (see Complete Adventurer page 97). Skill check modifiers can increase faster than STR modifiers, so you can make a trip-proof Rogue pretty easily.
    Well, the point is to use trip when necessary. I mean, you make a good point, but not everyone has ranks in balance, even at hig levels.
    Warning: my time zone and internet acces may lead to strange/late post answers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    DMing is how you turn D&D from a game into a hobby.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maroon View Post
    Players can see a story where there isn't one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    For 4.0? I expect them to whine to the DM until he makes the big bad boogeyman go away.

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