Hooray! A saving throw!

[EarFall]

So, I remember this character from a previous D&D campaign that a player had. When I asked him, you know, what the hell, he said, JUST LOOK AT MY SAVES. It was at level 5, I believe.... here it was.

LG Dream Dwarf Pally 2/Monk1/Cleric 1/ Ranger 1

Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 14 or 16, can't recall
Cha: 19 (21 with cloak)

Feats (relating to saves): Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Great Fortitude (Flaw)
Items: Vest or cloak of resistence +2... dumped all his money into those two items.

Saves:
Fort : 23 (25 vs spells) (25 vs poison) (27 against the spell poison? Not sure if racial bonuses stack).
Reflex: 15 (17 vs spells)
Will: 15 or 16 (17 or 18 vs spells)

Probably not the absolute best at saves, but the fact that he SERIOUSLY played this character amazes me to this day. As I recall (I was a player, and it was four years ago), he used to do nothing except go "YES!!!!" Whenever we had to make saves)

Edit: Forgot his bonuses from stats other than CHA first time.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Not really unusual, though getting a save-stacker by level 5 is pretty good. An Anthromorphic Bat Paladin, going with the Serenity feat(for Wis instead of Cha to saves)/Favored Soul 3 with a +1 cloak and an Periapt of Wis +2 gets saves of 25/22/30 before adding dex/con(since I can't remember the thing's racial mods beyond +6 Wis).

[EarFall]

Not really unusual, though getting a save-stacker by level 5 is pretty good. An Anthromorphic Bat Paladin, going with the Serenity feat(for Wis instead of Cha to saves)/Favored Soul 3 with a +1 cloak and an Periapt of Wis +2 gets saves of 25/22/30 before adding dex/con(since I can't remember the thing's racial mods beyond +6 Wis).

Geesh, +6 wisdom? Honestly, who lets that into their campaign without a LA?

[Dark_Scary]

1) People who see the -4 Str -4 Cha -2 something else.

2) Character: Magic Blooded Lesser Aasimar Hexblade 2/Cleric 3/Prestige Paladin 2 has nice high saves, also going to get Superior Resistance.

Alternatively: Ancient Human Monk 2/Hexblade 2/Paladin Tyranny 2/Shiba Protector 10/Dry Lich.

Needs only Cha and Wis.

[Volkov]

So, I remember this character from a previous D&D campaign that a player had. When I asked him, you know, what the hell, he said, JUST LOOK AT MY SAVES. It was at level 5, I believe.... here it was.

LG Dream Dwarf Pally 2/Monk1/Cleric 1/ Ranger 1

Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 14 or 16, can't recall
Cha: 19 (21 with cloak)

Feats (relating to saves): Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Great Fortitude (Flaw)
Items: Vest or cloak of resistence +2... dumped all his money into those two items.

Saves:
Fort : 23 (25 vs spells) (25 vs poison) (27 against the spell poison? Not sure if racial bonuses stack).
Reflex: 15 (17 vs spells)
Will: 15 or 16 (17 or 18 vs spells)

Probably not the absolute best at saves, but the fact that he SERIOUSLY played this character amazes me to this day. As I recall (I was a player, and it was four years ago), he used to do nothing except go "YES!!!!" Whenever we had to make saves)

Edit: Forgot his bonuses from stats other than CHA first time.

He's got better saving throws than characters with twice or maybe even thrice his level.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Anthromorphic Bats, they have -4 Str and -2 Cha as well as +6 Wis. Apart from the land movement speed of 5' and a flying speed of 20', I can't remember their other features. Also I don't think the racial bonuses would stack for saves vs. magical poison.

[Sinfire Titan]

Regarding Anthromorphic Bats, they have -4 Str and -2 Cha as well as +6 Wis. Apart from the land movement speed of 5' and a flying speed of 20', I can't remember their other features. Also I don't think the racial bonuses would stack for saves vs. magical poison.

I think the Blindsight out to 60ft (or was it more?) and Fly speed at LA 0 is enough to say NO to that race.

[Dark_Scary]

I think the Blindsight out to 60ft (or was it more?) and Fly speed at LA 0 is enough to say NO to that race.

Umm. No. A Fly speed of 20ft poor maneuverability to go with a 5ft land speed isn't something I would consider giving LA for.

The fly speed on the airborn anthros is a punishment not a reward.

[arguskos]

Umm. No. A Fly speed of 20ft poor maneuverability to go with a 5ft land speed isn't something I would consider giving LA for.

The fly speed on the airborn anthros is a punishment not a reward.

And as a druid with wildshape your natural movement types are irrelevant. Turn into something awesome and spend your whole day as that. Toss Natural Spell in there and ta-da, you don't care about -4 Str or 5 ft land speed.

The race is broken, story over. EVEN as a cleric, it's ridiculous. If you want to play an anthropomorphic bat, you are basically admitting you wish to powergame to an unreasonable degree. Unless everyone is that powerful, the bat has no place in the game.

NOTE: if your personal games are that powerful and you enjoy them, great, more power to you. Know that most games are not though, and that the bat is far too good for most games.

[Dark_Scary]

And as a druid with wildshape your natural movement types are irrelevant. Turn into something awesome and spend your whole day as that. Toss Natural Spell in there and ta-da, you don't care about -4 Str or 5 ft land speed.

I am well aware of the fact that Wildshaping Druid Anthro Bats are cool. This has absolutely no bearing on the fact that I was arguing against the Bats fly speed as deserving of LA.

You want to argue +6 Wis is too good, go ahead. I disagree, but I'm not going to argue it. You tell me 20ft poor is better then 20ft land speed I'll tell you it isn't.

[AmberVael]

Also, you have to recall that the blindsight is the only sense they have. If you move beyond that range, they're blind to you.

Anywho.

Yeah, those saves are fairly impressive. It IS more impressive that he managed to keep playing such a character- besides saves, I can't see him being good at much of anything.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

And as a druid with wildshape your natural movement types are irrelevant. Turn into something awesome and spend your whole day as that. Toss Natural Spell in there and ta-da, you don't care about -4 Str or 5 ft land speed.

The race is broken, story over. EVEN as a cleric, it's ridiculous. If you want to play an anthropomorphic bat, you are basically admitting you wish to powergame to an unreasonable degree. Unless everyone is that powerful, the bat has no place in the game.

NOTE: if your personal games are that powerful and you enjoy them, great, more power to you. Know that most games are not though, and that the bat is far too good for most games.

Eh, it's part of something different. Most races aren't supposed to have a huge advantage or disadvantage. Grey Elves get you +1 to save DCs and bonus spells, and they're massively loved. a few races, though, were made with severe disadvantages and advantages, so that the race didn't feel like every other race. The fact that the disadvantages are so easy to ignore is the problem, not the fact that it has good benefits to counter those advantages.

Though yes, +6 Wis is insane. I only referenced it because I was making a char in under 2 minutes with more than +20 to saves at level 5. Normally that thing qualifies, along with Domain Wizard and Venomfire, for the 'really, you needed to do that to win' set of things I actively hate in practical optimization(and sometimes even theoretical).

[nightwyrm]

Yeah, those saves are fairly impressive. It IS more impressive that he managed to keep playing such a character- besides saves, I can't see him being good at much of anything.

My thoughts exactly when I saw the character. So he can make good saves, does the character actually DO anything? He's a melee guy with 10 str!!

[EarFall]

I messed up his strength, it was actually decent, but i can't recall. But no, he did not do much. he eventually died and made a real character, and our whole group rejoiced.

[Berserk Monk]

Very impressive if it weren't for the fact that's a horrible multiclass combination just for some great saves.

[Chronos]

I think that when they wrote Savage Species, they not only didn't realize that fighters were weak, but they thought that fighters were the only class. "Hey Bob, do you think this race needs a LA?" "What, with a -4 to Strength and small size? Nobody would want that; your attack rolls and damage would suck, and you'd have to use puny weapons! If you can't hit things in melee, it's no use to anyone!".