a slight question about tuckers kobolds.

[Mystic Muse]

this isn't about the thing themselves but rather the concept. would this idea work well in 4th edition or bomb no matter what you did?

[Flickerdart]

this isn't about the thing themselves but rather the concept. would this idea work well in 4th edition or bomb no matter what you did?

Tucker's Kobolds aren't limited to editions. Murderholes, traps, etc. are still potent, and with utility magic all but gone (10 minute rituals won't save you) they're even deadlier.

[Mystic Muse]

that's good. my players aren't exactly going to be my twelve year olds so something that requires some thinking will be good

[NecroRebel]

They're a bit less effective due to the fact that they're not as small as they used to be. This means that halflings, gnomes, and other small creatures can actually follow them effectively through all of their tunnels, which can be good or bad.

Kobolds are fast little buggers, though; between their 6 speed and Shifty, they can move up to 17 squares per round if they double run, moving through Small tunnels all the while. This means that they can get away from essentially any PC if they put their minds to it in twisty passages.

Other than that, they're well-suited to waiting until PCs are in a relatively-large gallery, Shifty-ing out, throwing javelins, then running back into their mazes. Combine with traps, which kobolds are naturally resistant to, and you get some decent threats to even higher-level opponents.



The only stupid thing is that kobolds apparently aren't as smart as they used to be. None of the MM ones has more than 9 Int. The Draconomicon ones are smarter, ranging up to 17, but the fact that the MM one's aren't clever is... bad.

[RTGoodman]

They're a bit less effective due to the fact that they're not as small as they used to be.

Of course, you could just homebrew a Kobold power (maybe replacing Shifty) that lets them move through smaller spaces with no penalties.


Also, you know, I think 4E is actually a good system for running a Tucker's Kobolds encounter since traps are part of your XP budget and are to be used in an encounter anyway. You just need to figure out a way to maximize your number of kobolds and deadly traps within your XP budget.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Of course, you could just homebrew a Kobold power (maybe replacing Shifty) that lets them move through smaller spaces with no penalties.


Also, you know, I think 4E is actually a good system for running a Tucker's Kobolds encounter since traps are part of your XP budget and are to be used in an encounter anyway. You just need to figure out a way to maximize your number of kobolds and deadly traps within your XP budget.

All the Kobolds would be minions, of course. Part of the point of Tucker, though, was that no individuals were dangerous at all. They were making attacks that dealt a couple points of damage. Minions are supposed to be hard-hitting. Can you use minions from several levels lower?

Maybe do them as a swarm or something...

[RTGoodman]

All the Kobolds would be minions, of course. Part of the point of Tucker, though, was that no individuals were dangerous at all. They were making attacks that dealt a couple points of damage. Minions are supposed to be hard-hitting. Can you use minions from several levels lower?

You could, but that kinda seems like it's cheating to me since the point of Tucker's Kobolds is to destroy the party with just legitimate kobolds. You could use minions of the APL - 4, though, without it being too much of a different. I mean, you can get what, 20 or 25 of them as a standard encounter if they're of your party's level, so if the party's several levels higher, you can probably get 30 or so. Then add enough traps (at APL - 4, again, probably) to make it an encounter of the party's level + 2-4.

Maybe do them as a swarm or something...

I dunno; swarms might make them kinda like a legitimate combat threat.

[NecroRebel]

Also, you know, I think 4E is actually a good system for running a Tucker's Kobolds encounter since traps are part of your XP budget and are to be used in an encounter anyway. You just need to figure out a way to maximize your number of kobolds and deadly traps within your XP budget.

Level 5 encounter for 5 players: 20 Kobold Minions, 2 false-floor pit traps, a spear gauntlet trap, and a pendulum scythe trap. 1000 xp.

Remember, traps are part of the encounter, but walls and hallways aren't. Given a 2 or 3-story gallery, where the walls are riddled with small or tiny tunnels (tiny means kobolds have to squeeze, but medium creatures find them impassable) and small openings where the minions can pop out, throw a javelin, then pop back in, all during their own turns. Since they don't clump up at all, it's impossible to take out more than one per player attack, and even then, you may not even be able to hit any due to the fact that they've got superior cover before and after their attack. Put the pit traps in front of the only Medium or larger (locked) doors out of the shooting gallery, cover as many squares as possible in spear holes and pendulum paths, and you've got quite a nasty encounter, even for higher-level characters.

It is basically just a clinic in readied actions, though it is still quite nasty.

[RTGoodman]

Necro, seems we had the same idea. I just cheated and used the Encounter Builder on WotC's website.

Spoiler

Show

Tucker's Kobolds (4E Style)

Encounter Level Difficulty: Hard (2490)
5 PCs
Party Level 6

Setup
The kobolds all hide in and about their warren, waiting for the party to stumble upon them.

This encounter includes the following:
40 Kobold Cleaver
10 Trap/Hazard (2nd)


40 Kobold Cleaver Level 2 Minion
Small natural humanoid (reptile) XP 31 each

10 Trap/Hazard (2nd) Level 2 null
null natural null (Trap/Hazard) XP 125 each

Tactics
Using traps they've set up, murderholds, hallways too small for Medium PCs to enter, and other such ingenious tactics, the kobolds proceed to decimate the party with ruthless force.

EDIT: It's a Level 10 encounter, but that's an acceptable level for a Level 6 party.

[NecroRebel]

Necro, seems we had the same idea. I just cheated and used the Encounter Builder on WotC's website.

Mine took fewer minions and traps

Regardless, I suspect that you included the hallways that the kobolds use to get between positions as traps, else you wouldn't have bought so many. But yeah, kobolds can still be very scary and effective, Tucker-style.

[RTGoodman]

Mine took fewer minions and traps

Regardless, I suspect that you included the hallways that the kobolds use to get between positions as traps, else you wouldn't have bought so many. But yeah, kobolds can still be very scary and effective, Tucker-style.

Well, I started to try to figure out individual traps, but I gave up and figured DMs could make their own just following examples in the DMG. (Just make sure they're equivalent to other Level 2 Hazards/Traps.) Halls could certainly count, but honestly, the reason I put so many traps in is 'cuz I was tired of clicking to add minions once I got to 40 and figured I'd just make up the difference (i.e., what I needed to get to ~2,500 XP) with the (more expensive) traps.

[Mando Knight]

The only stupid thing is that kobolds apparently aren't as smart as they used to be. None of the MM ones has more than 9 Int. The Draconomicon ones are smarter, ranging up to 17, but the fact that the MM one's aren't clever is... bad.

Just give them a leader, like a single not-minion kobold (pact-bound adept from the 'nomicon, maybe?) or the adult dragon farther down the hall that trained them like pets.

[NecroRebel]

Well, I started to try to figure out individual traps, but I gave up and figured DMs could make their own just following examples in the DMG. (Just make sure they're equivalent to other Level 2 Hazards/Traps.) Halls could certainly count, but honestly, the reason I put so many traps in is 'cuz I was tired of clicking to add minions once I got to 40 and figured I'd just make up the difference (i.e., what I needed to get to ~2,500 XP) with the (more expensive) traps.

Heh. I guess for things where you're repeating a single enemy type a whoe lot hand-building is more efficient than auto-building

Just give them a leader, like a single not-minion kobold (pact-bound adept from the 'nomicon, maybe?) or the adult dragon farther down the hall that trained them like pets.

Yeah, and if I was running such a battle, it would be just the first in an established kobold warren. I'm of the opinion that kobolds should only be "easy" or cannon fodder for level 1-3 characters if it's a newly-established colony that hasn't had time to build up these ludicrously-effective defensive nets that they should be known for. An established warren, or one with a draconic patron, should be appropriate for level 7-10 characters, with maybe a hundred minions and a couple dozen non-minions throughout the warren, not to mention all the traps that they have in place. And, if you play your cards wrong, all of them might decide to come deal with the intruders at once.

[Kylarra]

Doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose if they're rated as a "hard" encounter and then played up as tuckers? IIRC the point was that the actual encounter-effects used weren't terribly overpowering, but the tactics are what made or broke the encounter.

[mistformsquirrl]

As someone very unfamiliar with this concept - could anyone explain in greater detail?

I did a search both here and on Google; but what I'm coming up with is kinda vague. (I mean, it makes sense: Kobolds attacking en-masse and being very smart about it (concealment, small tunnels, traps)) - but it sounds like there's more to it than that, at least from the way people talk about it.

What am I missing?

(... also is there any way to be prepared? No sane player trusts their DMs *not* to do something horribly evil. >.>)

[RTGoodman]

Doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose if they're rated as a "hard" encounter and then played up as tuckers? IIRC the point was that the actual encounter-effects used weren't terribly overpowering, but the tactics are what made or broke the encounter.

Yeah, exactly what this is still mirroring - minions and low-level traps ARE still very weak - it's not the monsters here that make it hard, it's sheer numbers and ruthless tactics. I mean, these little Level 2 minions are still only doing like, 6 damage on a hit with a sword, and they still fall in one hit. It's just that they make it so they can do that 6 damage a LOT, and aren't in any real danger of GETTING hit because of their tactics.

@mistformsquirrl: Here's a basic description. If you Google "Tucker's Kobolds," the original editorial is the first result.

Tucker's kobolds were a fictional tribe of kobolds made famous by Roger E. Moore's editorial in Dragon magazine issue 127.[1] The editorial described a dungeon crawl adventure designed and run by a Game Master in Fort Bragg, North Carolina named Tucker in which a party of high-level adventurers entered a dungeon whose first level was inhabited by kobolds.

While normally kobolds are considered extremely weak monsters of no significant threat, Tucker's kobolds were intimately familiar with their home territory and were well prepared to repel invaders using devious traps and ambushes. Tactics described in the editorial included trapping the party in a corridor filled with flammable materials that they then set on fire, shooting crossbows at the party through murder holes or from sniper positions with prepared escape routes, and hurling Molotov cocktails at the party from behind the cover of flaming barricades that groups of kobolds pushed ahead of them with metal poles. The party's hirelings and henchmen were all killed and they had to abandon their donkeys and many of their supplies in their hurry to get through the kobolds' territory. The party ultimately "escaped" down an air shaft that led to a very deep level of the dungeon inhabited by demons.

Tucker's kobolds became a famous part of Dungeons & Dragons lore, often referred to as an example of how cunning and local knowledge can be used by physically weak opponents to overcome much more powerful adversaries.

[mistformsquirrl]

Ahh ok, I think I actually read the editorial >.> it just felt somehow vague.

Then again that may just be me wanting to know things more specific than are strictly necessary <~_~>b thank you.

[Kylarra]

Yeah, exactly what this is still mirroring - minions and low-level traps ARE still very weak - it's not the monsters here that make it hard, it's sheer numbers and ruthless tactics. I mean, these little Level 2 minions are still only doing like, 6 damage on a hit with a sword, and they still fall in one hit. It's just that they make it so they can do that 6 damage a LOT, and aren't in any real danger of GETTING hit because of their tactics.

Well I mean more of, you have ECL 10 worth of critters here. That's not saying "I'm playing my minions effectively and you're losing to tactics." To me, it's saying "I've got an already hard encounter, and I'm playing every single angle I've got to make you lose."

[RTGoodman]

Eh, either way, it'd work just as well as a Level 2 Encounter for a Level 2 party feature 12-15 Kobold Cleavers (Level 2 Minions) and two Level 2 traps. I was just trying to bump it up to a higher level anyway.

Okay, I admit it, I did get a little carried away seeing how many critters I could get in a single, "by-the-book" encounter. As it turns out, at least 50!

[Kylarra]

I've no doubt it would work with less, I was just pointing out the fact.

[NecroRebel]

Well I mean more of, you have ECL 10 worth of critters here. That's not saying "I'm playing my minions effectively and you're losing to tactics." To me, it's saying "I've got an already hard encounter, and I'm playing every single angle I've got to make you lose."

Try it with mine, then; it's level 5, but I'd say it would be a challenge for a level 7 or 8 party, depending on the classes and equipment they have available. By xp alone, it's supposed to be a trivially easy encounter for such characters, but if they don't have what they need (which is lots and lots of area attacks), then they're in a lot of trouble

Essentially, despite the fact that the kobolds and traps are low level, will usually hit only ~20% of the time, and will deal only a little damage, the fact is that they're difficult to counterattack against. The kobolds are unreachable in melee except by small creatures, and halflings and gnomes rarely go melee, they perpetually have cover or superior cover due to being overhead and behind walls, and they don't remain even partially exposed while not attacking. Further, you can't easily get out of the place they have prepared, because the only doors you'll fit through are locked and on the other side of a 10 foot pit with no ledge between the door and pit. You have to hang onto the wall to pick the locks, and all the while you'll be pelted with javelins.

It probably wouldn't be a wipe, but it would be difficult to beat.

[RTGoodman]

You know, I'm kinda tempted to try and see if one of these works out as well as it seems like it should. Wonder if I've got time in the next week or so to start recruiting for a PbP...

(By the way, we need a devil smiley.)


Ooh, and actually, you know what would be easy? Recruit 5 folks to be the PCs, and then a handful of others to play the enemies. (In groups of 4-5 minions and a trap or so a piece, of course.)

[Kylarra]

Try it with mine, then; it's level 5, but I'd say it would be a challenge for a level 7 or 8 party, depending on the classes and equipment they have available. By xp alone, it's supposed to be a trivially easy encounter for such characters, but if they don't have what they need (which is lots and lots of area attacks), then they're in a lot of trouble

Essentially, despite the fact that the kobolds and traps are low level, will usually hit only ~20% of the time, and will deal only a little damage, the fact is that they're difficult to counterattack against. The kobolds are unreachable in melee except by small creatures, and halflings and gnomes rarely go melee, they perpetually have cover or superior cover due to being overhead and behind walls, and they don't remain even partially exposed while not attacking. Further, you can't easily get out of the place they have prepared, because the only doors you'll fit through are locked and on the other side of a 10 foot pit with no ledge between the door and pit. You have to hang onto the wall to pick the locks, and all the while you'll be pelted with javelins.

It probably wouldn't be a wipe, but it would be difficult to beat.

I'll admit I was complaining for the sake of complaining. I truly believe that it is possible to run it with the right tactics and lower numbers of minions. I don't have the experience with 4e to visualize the exact scenario as to a specific encounter's effectiveness, but I wouldn't doubt that proper [ab]use of terrain can make a breeze encounter into something that takes far more resources than a "hard" encounter should.

[NecroRebel]

I'll admit I was complaining for the sake of complaining. I truly believe that it is possible to run it with the right tactics and lower numbers of minions. I don't have the experience with 4e to visualize the exact scenario as to a specific encounter's effectiveness, but I wouldn't doubt that proper [ab]use of terrain can make a breeze encounter into something that takes far more resources than a "hard" encounter should.

Agreed. The only advantage to more minions is, of course, that it means that the kobolds have reserves. Given the gallery I'm envisioning, which is about 20x50x20 feet, the kobolds would only have about 20 openings from which to attack, and they would want to intentionally leave most of them unoccupied most of the time so as to reduce the effectiveness of area burst effects (the player would have to guess which of those holes was occupied to get the kobolds on the player's turn) and, depending on how the DM rules readied actions, those as well.

[chiasaur11]

You know, I'm kinda tempted to try and see if one of these works out as well as it seems like it should. Wonder if I've got time in the next week or so to start recruiting for a PbP...

(By the way, we need a devil smiley.)

Wouldn't Sabine work for that?