Out of curiosity...

**GreatWyrmGold** · 2009-05-28, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)

...why do people think the monk is underpowered? The monk's my favorite class! i'm forced to assume that either, A.) people on this board and in other places are crazy, B.) someone had a bad experience with a monk and now everyone agrees with him/her, or C.) there's something I missed about the monk.
Will someone please explain?

**Dogmantra** · 2009-05-28, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)

Mostly because of the low BAB and the MAD. Not only does it get 3/4 BAB, and it's a melee class, it uses flurry to get the right amount of attacks, which even with no penalty gives a net -5 compared to a fighter 20.

Monks also need quite a few high ability scores to be pretty decent. They need STR for attacks/damage, DEX for AC, CON for HP (another of their weaknesses is that they're a frontliner with only d8 hit dice), WIS for AC and Monk abilities, then INT if they want to have some skills too.

While exaggerrated somewhat (no, it would not be better to play a commoner 20), monks are pretty weak.

**GreatWyrmGold** · 2009-05-28, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Dogmantra

Mostly because of the low BAB and the MAD.

Uh...not to sound dumb, but what's MAD?

**Flickerdart** · 2009-05-28, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)

And all the abilities they get are useless and have no synergy. They have a high movement speed (enhancement, so stacks with almost nothing) but need Full Attacks to Flurry. Stunning Fist's DC is too low, and Quivering Palm is useless. Their SR will just block out allied buffs. Wholeness of Body is useless. Tongue of the Sun and Moon is random and can be replicated by Tongues. Their Slow Fall is like Feather Fall but much worse.

And then people VoP them...which makes them even worse.

MAD = Multiple Ability Dependent. They need all but Charisma not to suck, while, say, a Wizard only needs pretty much INT.

**Dhavaer** · 2009-05-28, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold

Uh...not to sound dumb, but what's MAD?

Multiple Ability Dependence. monks need everything except Int and Cha.

**Sstoopidtallkid** · 2009-05-28, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)

My monk post a couple weeks ago(since I don't want to type it out again). I'm considering making a 'Monks Suck' handbook and just linking that though, at this point.

Monk problems:
MAD: You need Wis for AC, Dex for AC, Con for HP, Str for to-hit and AB. You also can't dump Int since skills are pretty important.
Low AC: You can't wear armor, meaning that your Wis needs to be higher than the Armor bonus the Rogue is getting. Generally, you fall behind on AC. MAD excabrates this.
Low AB: Flurry of Blows costs at low levels, and the partial BAB doesn't help. By high levels, Fighters are Power Attacking for 20 and still hitting, so the fact that you can, too, isn't helpful. MAD excabrates this.
Low damage: You have to stack size increases(not easy) to get your fists up to dealing good damage, and you still end up not great. MAD excabrates this.
Wierd/useless abilities: Tongue of the Sun and Moon? Really? Are you really in so many situations where you need to speak Treant and the casters can't cast Tongues? Most of their abilities fall into similar problems by either replicating low-level spells or being too situational(or both), with the Capstone being nearly as much of a nerf as a benefit. SR is useless, too, blocking allied combat buffs and not helping with the BBEG casters or certain low-level deadly spells.
Limited abilities: A lot of their abilities only happen once/day, including the Fort SoD that is once/week. Speed boosts that don't stack with(and are inferior to for half of the levels) the most common spell to boost speed. Just not useful.
Poor synergy: Lots of movement-based abilities and skills, then a major class feature that requires a full-attack. All of their attacks target either Fort or AC, which are generally either both low or both high. The special combat actions are always either Str-checks(which MAD wrecks), AB checks(ruined for obvious reasons), or penalize light weapons and boost THF, meaning the Monk is poor at them.
Low skill points: Really, you expected me to put something here? Fine, MAD excabrates this.
Poor proficiencies: You're limited to using 'special Monk weapons', most of which have poor base damage and weak special abilities. Effective PA is pretty much closed off to you, and most of the weapons are Light, meaning special combat actions are harder. You also have no reach weapons at all, meaning that AoO(the normal method for dex-focused special combat action-based fighters) is sharply limited.
Unarmed wakness: Unarmed strikes cannot be enchanted, meaning you have no way to overcome DR/Silver or similar, and no way to strike incorporeal creatures at all. Yes, you can buy magic Kamas or something, but then why aren't you playing a Fighter and using something good?

Not saying they don't have uses, or that a Monk can't be optimized to be great, just that generally other classes are a better fit most times.

**lesser_minion** · 2009-05-28, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)

In essence, most of the things a monk can do can either be done as well - or better - by an equal level character of another class, and those features unique to the monk are not particularly useful to the party.

At the same time, a typical monk also has to pump at least four ability scores in order to be on par with other characters in combat.

The end result is basically that almost any other class will give rise to a better companion for an adventuring party.

A major example, just using the core rulebooks, is Abundant Step (1/day) - an 11th level character (Fighter/Ranger/Horizon Walker) can manage the same thing every d4 rounds. The following level, he can gain a flat immunity to any alignment-based effect, tremorsense, or another feat. At the same time, he is also using a spiked chain/guisarme/kusari-gama/glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive or similar weapon and regularly tripping and carving up any opponent.

A monk can't compete with most of those.

**Eldariel** · 2009-05-28, 09:24 PM (ISO 8601)

MAD is really the biggest problem with them (aside from mostly lame class features; really, the first 2 levels are great for dipping from other classes but beyond that the abilities aren't amazing [Diamond Soul isn't worth staying straight Monk; Greater Flurry is the only notable ability beyond level 6 and you don't spend 5 levels on 1 ability]). If you could start with 18 Str, 18 Dex, 18 Wis, 14 Con, 14 Int and 8 Cha, a Monk would be pretty servicable. In fact, you'd have quite a few options; you could use Improved Trip-line to a good effect, you could use Stunning Fist very decently, you could make an ok Grappler (although you'll never be too good at that because of medium BAB), you could even pull a decent damage output and tank.

In short, a Monk with those stats can do about the same amount of stuff well as a Fighter with 18 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 8 Wis and 8 Cha. Notice the critical point? The Fighter has stats from a high-powered game (that array comes down at 32pb) while the Monk has stats you could practically never buy or roll ever (that comes out at 60pb). And the Fighter isn't even very SAD. A Druid could be perfectly servicable with Str 8, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 8 from level 6 on. That's the equivalent of a 22pb or a low-powered game.

Level 1-5 would be hard without some Dex, but the Druid could do just fine with Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 8, which is the same 22pb. That same array works for the Wizard and the Cleric (the Cleric doesn't need Dex thanks to heavy armor, but can make great use out of Str & Cha). Now try to build a Monk on 22pb.

You end up with something like...14 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 8 Int, 14 Wis, 8 Cha. Yeah, you're gonna suck. Your AC is gonna be 14 for most of the game, you won't have any HP to speak of and your attack bonuses will suck.

**HP McLuvin** · 2009-05-28, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)