Out of curiosity...

[Piedmon_Sama]

Wow, so the Monk can only flurry on a full attack action? I've had a Monk in my campaign from 2005 to very recently, and I always let her player use his Spring Attack feat and flurry at the same time without ever thinking about it.

So for the three years we've been semi-regularly playing this game, pretty much everytime that PC attacked we broke the rules. XD

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Wow, so the Monk can only flurry on a full attack action? I've had a Monk in my campaign from 2005 to very recently, and I always let her player use his Spring Attack feat and flurry at the same time without ever thinking about it.

So for the three years we've been semi-regularly playing this game, pretty much everytime that PC attacked we broke the rules. XD

And I suggest you keep doing it.

[derfenrirwolv]

Flurry of rule breaking?

Yeah, the iterative attack thing is what really makes the monk kinda... not work.

You have a class that's based on moving fast, tumbling past opponents crouching tiger style, and very well set up to use mobility feats.... but in order to compensate for their low damage and low attack bonus they get more attacks... which they can only use when they stand still.

[lesser_minion]

Unless the monk somehow mysteriously oneshotted the Solar, I'm pretty sure the Solar, at the point where he was at say, half his HP would be thinking 'Hey, THIS Monk isn't COMPLETELY useless.' To which point he'd fly up and then cast Heal on himself if he really wanted to, before raining longbow or magical death on the helpless Monk. Or just cast Wish and then cure the Monk of his terrible oxygen addiction on the spot instead of putzing around.

Well, the monk does have a way to one-shot things - it just never gets used.

[Flickerdart]

Well, the monk does have a way to one-shot things - it just never gets used.

Quivering Palm? The one that the Solar has to roll a 3 or better to ignore? The one that the Monk has to hit with first, against AC 35+whatever buffs the Solar can put up? The one that will never be able to hit the flying Solar with a +2 bow and infinite Slaying arrows?

[lesser_minion]

Well, the point was that an overconfident solar could be taken down by the simple combination of natural 20 to hit, natural 1 to save.

And I don't see a restriction on Quivering Palm saying that it has to be done with a melee attack.

So really, all the monk player has to do is break out the loaded dice.

I'm agreeing with you - I'm just pointing out that the monk could conceivably one-shot the brain-dead solar in question.

[Flickerdart]

Well, the point was that an overconfident solar could be taken down by the simple combination of natural 20 to hit, natural 1 to save.

If it gets in melee, all the monk player has to do is break out the loaded dice.

But that's not the Monk's merit. That's:
-The DM playing a 23-INT Angel poorly
-A 400 in 1 chance
Neither one of those is a feature of the Monk character.

Hm, true, there is nothing in the description of Quivering Palm that requires it to be a melee attack other than, y'know, the NAME. But if whoever is reading it insists on being RAWtarded, try and hit the Solar with a piddling crossbow or sling shot before it casts Wind Wall and then kills you.

[lesser_minion]

But that's not the Monk's merit. That's:
-The DM playing a 23-INT Angel poorly
-A 400 in 1 chance
Neither one of those is a feature of the Monk character.

Well, the DM did 'throw' a solar at the monk. Maybe using a Hulking Hurler build?

It might not have been poorly-played under those conditions, and it's no less conceivable than the angel deciding to commit suicide.

[Flickerdart]

Well, the DM did 'throw' a solar at the monk. Maybe using a Hulking Hurler build?

Perhaps some sort of Commoner Railgun.

The Angel is still in the air though, which means the Monk can't get to him.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Seven feats, huh. Even if he's Human, that's a lot of levels. Two at 1st, one at 3rd, one at 6th, one at 9th, one at 12th, one at 15th. He has to be level 15 before he can pull that stuff off. 9th with flaws.
I also cannot find Flying Kick. What book's it from?

That's moreso a list of feat that's he's going to take during the course of his build, but that does bring to mind something odd. I don't think he actually looks at the prequisites for those feats, he asks what feats would be good then just...writes them down. Looks like I have to check his sheet now.

[Tiki Snakes]

That's moreso a list of feat that's he's going to take during the course of his build, but that does bring to mind something odd. I don't think he actually looks at the prequisites for those feats, he asks what feats would be good then just...writes them down. Looks like I have to check his sheet now.

I approve of this conversation, in the general sense of enjoying the 'is he or isn't he a sneaky kung-fu munchkin' Mystery. I have nothing productive to add, however. Carry on. And keep us posted! ^_^

I love the concept of monks, personally. I'm hedging with the naysayers on the reality of 3.5 monks, though to be fair, the same can be said for pretty much anything in 3.5 without spells, to some degree. And some things WITH spells.

Here's hoping the 4th edition monk ends up proving more capable of actually contributing, eh? :)

[Narmoth]

That's moreso a list of feat that's he's going to take during the course of his build, but that does bring to mind something odd. I don't think he actually looks at the prequisites for those feats, he asks what feats would be good then just...writes them down. Looks like I have to check his sheet now.

You get a lot of bonus exalted feats from vop. If he treats them as ordinary feats (in stead of the more sucky exalted only feats), he could pull it of

[GreatWyrmGold]

Granted, you become very much a one-trick pony, things do become increasingly resistant to mind-affecting abilities (like Stun)...

Stun isn't mind-affecting.

[Gorbash]

You get a lot of bonus exalted feats from vop. If he treats them as ordinary feats (in stead of the more sucky exalted only feats), he could pull it of

Then you're changing the mechanics of the game, that's not the same... You might as well say, he could pull it if Solar was stunned, gagged, tied, unconcious, disabled and blind. Fact remains that a ECL 19 (I think?) character managed to kill a CR 26 creature (meaning it should be a challenge for character of ECL 24-26), and it's a monk even. I'm not sure even a Wizard or CoDzilla could pull it off.

How come nobody found it odd that an Exalted monk was fighting a Solar?

[Jayabalard]

Well, it has been repeatedly demonstrated that the monk should have been curb-stomped in short order by this encounter - even the CR says so.

"Should have" is true only based on certain assumptions.

Then you're changing the mechanics of the game

He did say that he had done that; he gave a couple specific examples but there's no reason to assume those were the only house rules.

[Gorbash]

He did say that he had done that; he gave a couple specific examples but there's no reason to assume those were the only house rules

Then his example, in this topic, is not valid, since that's not longer a Monk, that's something that belongs in the Homebrew discussion.

That's the same if somebody entered a debate on Batman wizards with a post:

Pffft, Wizards suck, there's a wizard in my party who regularely gets beaten to a pulp by house cats and commoners!

Oh did I mention that Wizards in our campaign can cast only Cantrips?

[GreatWyrmGold]

To be brutally honest? Yes. A gold dragon monk with VoP? First, lets ignore the 'gold dragon' part since dragons cannot be played in any reasonable campaign. Monk with VoP. This means that the monk loses out on items which can shore up his vast weaknesses(magic cloaks, bracers of armor, many ways to gain flight, etc..) and gains weak bonuses to make up for it. So not only do you have a mechanically ineffective class, you also have a mechanically punitive feat applied to a mechanically ineffective class. A basic fighter 20 is still more effective, and the gulf is only made worse by including VoP. (A)



You actually are on that part. But it's an honest mistake since you underestimated how broken Shapechange can be. Shapechange rules. Specifically:



Bolding mine. A druid Shapechanges into a dragon. He's now an Adult dragon(at CL20) with all the benefits and still retains his spellcasting. Adding in Natural Spell he can still cast in his dragon form. Straight up druid 20 gets all the benefits of Druid 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10, except he also has Druid 20 casting and can share his Shapechange with his animal companion(getting -2- dragons for the price of one!). (B)

A. Do you have the BoED? VoP gives various AC bonuses, makes all your attacks magical (solving one monk problem), and does other things magic items can duplicate. Plus, it grants a zillion exalted feats-as many exalted feats as a fighter gets his bonus feats. Sure, most exalted feats ain't so great, but some are useful. Care to give a ravage to people you TOUCH? Deal extra damage to ANY evil creature you hit? You can take TWO of the feats (one made for natural weapons, one for manufactured ones) and get the damage TWICE. Plus, the monk doesn't need anything more than the feat allows.

B.
Pros of Wild Shape in aforementioned build v. Level 20 shapechange:
It lasts, effectivly, all day
If you take Natural Spell, you can cast spells
You gain Warshaper benifets (like fast healing, +4 Str and Con, extra reach, and some I forgot)
It's not a spell, it's supernatural; thus, it can't be dispelled, or disspelled, and won't provoke AoOs (assuming you have to use it in combat. Not likely.)
Cons:
You can't be constructs or undead (and maybe outsider, too)
You can't be collosal without a feat
You don't get supernatural abilities of the target

Also, nice comments to everyone! I'll have to read them if I have time!

[Flickerdart]

"Should have" is true only based on certain assumptions.

Everything is "based on certain assumptions". It's how, y'know, science works. Without "certain assumptions", you would not be typing on your computer right now.

And there do not have to be very many "assumptions" regarding the Solar. Every single Solar can cast as a Cleric. Every single Solar has the same weapons and abilities. Every single Solar has incredible INT. Every single Solar can fly. If you have removed these things, it is not really a Solar. The only assumptions made here is for the Solar to act as its INT and abilities would dictate, instead of landing and then doing nothing.

Indeed, "certain assumptions" are what needs to be made for the Monk to have a chance of winning: incredible rolls, homebrew, DM fiat, cheating...

[Gorbash]

makes all your attacks magical (solving one monk problem)

Monks already get that ability at lvl 4.

and does other things magic items can duplicate

Really? Does it give you Flight? Burrow? Swim? Climb? Invisibility? See invisibility? Aligned attacks? Miss chance? Skill bonuses?

[GreatWyrmGold]

at 20th level, you can slow fall any distance. a level 1 wizard can cast feather fall and get the same effect. almost every other ability is like that.

The wizard goes 60 feet, max. Sure, a 1st-level monk can't do that, but a 1st-level monk can kick a 1st-level wizard's butt in melee.

Wizard: Magic Mis-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Acis spla-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Mage ar-
Monk:You're unconsious. Coup de grace.

Oh, and what's with the poor grammar?

[Flickerdart]

The wizard goes 60 feet, max. Sure, a 1st-level monk can't do that, but a 1st-level monk can kick a 1st-level wizard's butt in melee.

Wizard: Magic Mis-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Acis spla-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Mage ar-
Monk:You're unconsious. Coup de grace.

Oh, and what's with the poor grammar?

Well, yes, if the Wizard starts in Melee range, unbuffed and naked. And even then he can make a 5ft step away and cast any number of spells that make the Monk no longer a problem, such as Grease, Summon Monster or, if you're willing to gamble on Will, Sleep or Colour Spray. And that's just Core.

[Woot Spitum]

The wizard goes 60 feet, max. Sure, a 1st-level monk can't do that, but a 1st-level monk can kick a 1st-level wizard's butt in melee.

Wizard: Magic Mis-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Acis spla-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Mage ar-
Monk:You're unconsious. Coup de grace.

Oh, and what's with the poor grammar?

You assume a) the monk starts out next to the wizard, b) the monk can reach the wizard in one turn, c) the wizard is unable to tumble out of reach, d) the monk goes first, or e) some combination of the above. The wizard could just as easily take out the monk with sleep or color spray before the monk can do anything. Honestly, the encounter will come down to who rolls better. Hardly as one-sided as you make it out to be.

[Jayabalard]

Indeed, "certain assumptions" are what needs to be made for the Monk to have a chance of winning: incredible rolls, homebrew, DM fiat, cheating...

No assumptions have to be made for the monk to win; that's a known fact.

Of the things you list, the only one that's absolutely necessary is homebrew and we know that, at least in part, that's the case. It's possible that there are other factors, but until/unless he shares those with us we can't do anything but speculate.

Then his example, in this topic, is not valid, since that's not longer a Monk, that's something that belongs in the Homebrew discussion.

To me it's just as valid as someone quoting the RAW as if it was engraved on stone tablets. Real world examples (as in, how people actually play the game, whether it's by RAW or so heavily homebrewed it's debatable whether it's still D&D), leads to much more interesting discussions.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Lets look at these "facts" honestly.

So far, so good.

Ok. It's unarmed damage at level 20 is 2d10+STR. Assuming it has a STR of 26, that makes it 2d10+8. An average of 19.

A horned devil(CR 16, so a Monk should -reasonably- be able to solo it) has DR 10/Silver and Good. Meaning a monk does 9 damage per punch if he hits without items. The horned devil however does 2d6+15 for an average of 21 per hit, all of which bypasses the monk's DR/Magic. The monk deal damage without weapons: [Failed]

Alright...

The Monk can heal himself? At level 20, for 40 HP. So he can heal away 2 of the hits of the above horned devil. Is it useful? No. But the monk can do it so I'll give you that. [Barely]

The Monk can ignore spells, poisons and diseases. While the Monk can ignore poisons of all kinds, it cannot ignore magical diseases. Comparing it to the aforementioned Horned Devil, the Horned Devil must roll a 15 to bypass the Monk's SR 30. Against a CR 16 creature, the monk can ignore it's 6 damage spells. Naturally this ignores the fact that the Horned Devil is a melee fighter. Unfortunately for the monk, poison sucks and the only good diseases are magical. [Barely]

More than one high-level character/monster would have found an extra 40 hp of healing useful. Also, poison can be delibating. It can KILL you if you're unlucky. Being immune to it removes one facet of "death from unluckiness". The disease part, though, is kinda true.

The Monk can talk to anybody. This is true, but so can anyone able to cast or access the tongues spell. [Useless]

But, at will...and, if I recall, with any living creature. If your DM allows the cheese and I'm remembering right, you can talk with TREES. Useless? I think not. And, even if you need the critter to have a laguage, "constantly" is longer than any apell duration. Plus, you need to know you need the spell ahead of time.

The Monk can turn into a Ghost. Not quite accurate. Turning into a Ghost would actually make the monk moderately useful. No, instead the monk can turn Ethereal. A melee fighter with the ability to stop affecting the material plane? [Hilariously Useless]

Useless in combat? Yes. So is the ghost template, long-distance teleportation, astral projection, resurection, etc. So they all must suck!

The Monk can fall without injury. Not quite accurate either. The monk can fall as long as he is within touch range of a wall without injury. This is sort of like Feather Fall, but significantly less useful. Meanwhile, the fighter just plain doesn't care since falling only deals a maximum of 20d6 damage ever. [Useless]

Finally, something not too false.

The Monk can teleport a little. A little is right as the monk can only use Dimension Door once a day for a maximum of 800 feet at level 20. This might be useful if you're running away from someone, but if you're running away then you've failed to begin with. [Failed]

Alright. You sorta got us there. But why waste a fly spell or whatnot to pull a lever if you can teleport up there? And slow fall your way down! Or, use it against fast bad guys! Geez, it's TELEPORTATION. How useless can it be?
Or is it "useless" in combat and thus useless? Oh, wait, it does have combat uses, one described above.

This means a monk has to spend 36,000 gold four times(CON, STR, DEX and WIS for a total of 128,000) to get the same numbers as a fighter wearing +5 full plate and +STR/CON items(64,000+26,000=90,000). And even then, the monk is still behind on attack bonus(+3 vs +8) and AC(+6 vs +13). The monk spends less money for better stats? [Failed]

True, but can the fighter catch up with a fleeing, 40-foot speed BBEG? Everyone has pros and cons.

You're right. The monk has really high base saves. However, when the Fighter is rolling +12 with a +7 CON modifier versus the Monk's +12 with a +5 CON modifier.. Well, he still doesn't stack up. Sure, the monk has no weakness, but he also has no strength. [Barely]

Said fighter is useless with Will and possibly Reflex saves.

Hmm. Assuming he's trying to steal from a 20th level fighter, you'd be almost right. Except the fighter's armor can't be taken off without spending 10 minutes and he's certainly going to notice that. Disarming him is an attack that will fail(your light weapons against his two-handed? Ha. That's an effective -8 penalty right there) and tell the fighter you're there. Over all, attempting to steal his stuff will just get steel pointy bits put into the monk's soft fleshy bits. [Failed]



2d10+30? Where's a +30 coming from? Assuming he's got maxed out strength(32 or so), power attack and shock trooper.. That's +26 with a full PA for 15. Guess what. Readied actions. That monk charging in for 2d10+26 is gonna get counter-charged by a fighter for 2d6+41(using 32 STR and PAing for merely 15). On top of that, when the monk tries to move away he gets AoO'd for his trouble for another 2d6+41. The monk has badassery that no class can match? [Failed]

Not too bad...

And all of that assumes a -fighter- of 20th level. A more useful melee fighter like a Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, Barbarian, Knight, or even a Swashbuckling Rogue will do the exact same thing but significantly more stylishly.

And with lower BAB, Str, etc.

Also:



No, that's a Ninja(complete adventurer).

Why?

[ZeroNumerous]

A bunch of stuff about VoP.

Gorbash covered this and you ignored it.

It lasts, effectivly, all day

20 * 10 = 200 = 3 hours. Metamagic Rod, Extend for 6 hours. 2 castings lasts you the entire adventuring day.

If you take Natural Spell, you can cast spells

As a 5th level Druid. Congrats, you get to cast crappy spells that a level 20 threat will just ignore or save against. Conversely, Shapechange lets you retain your spells anyway since they're not an (Su) ability.

You gain Warshaper benifets (like fast healing, +4 Str and Con, extra reach, and some I forgot)

Or I could shapechange into a Dragon. Oh, look at that. I have crazy reach, a -fear aura-, stupendous CON and STR and I could care less about fast healing. On top of that, I regain a full night's rest of HP everytime I change forms. This is effectively Fast Healing 20 since you can change forms once a round as a free action.

It's not a spell, it's supernatural; thus, it can't be dispelled, or disspelled, and won't provoke AoOs (assuming you have to use it in combat. Not likely.)

For a significantly lower benefit? Plus, if all else fails you just cast Shapechange again.

In the end the ultimate benefit of Shapechange? You can change into anything. You are in no way limited to what you can become. Shapechange into an Iron Golem. Watch as other people suck on your immunity to magic while you summon Shamblers or an Elder Elemental to back you up.

End result: Shapechange, just like all other forms of magic, super-trumps non-magical melee.

More than one high-level character/monster would have found an extra 40 hp of healing useful.

Show me a CR 16 that can't deal 40 HP in one or two attacks. Not just spells, but attacks. You'll see how wrong this statement is.

Also, poison can be delibating.

No, it can't. No poison scales well enough to be useful at level 20.

Useless? I think not. And, even if you need the critter to have a laguage, "constantly" is longer than any apell duration. Plus, you need to know you need the spell ahead of time.

Scroll. This entire class feature just became utterly worthless.

Useless in combat? Yes. So is the ghost template, long-distance teleportation, astral projection, resurection, etc. So they all must suck!

Resurrection actually is useless. Astral Projection can be used in combat and Greater Teleport has valid non-combat transportation uses. What can etherealness do? It lets you stop attacking the material plane. Congrats, you get a class feature which lets you suck for 1 round/level.

Alright. You sorta got us there. But why waste a fly spell or whatnot to pull a lever if you can teleport up there?

Overland Flight. Hour/level.

And slow fall your way down! Or, use it against fast bad guys! Geez, it's TELEPORTATION. How useless can it be?

1 day. So incredibly useless.

True, but can the fighter catch up with a fleeing, 40-foot speed BBEG? Everyone has pros and cons.

Yes. Double move into melee range, trip when he triggers an AoO trying to move away.

Said fighter is useless with Will and possibly Reflex saves.

Mind Blank and Ref Saves means less HP, which is something the fighter has in spades.

And with lower BAB, Str, etc.

You have no idea what any of those classes even are, do you? Every single one is a primary meleer with full BAB and beats the pants off a monk without even trying.

Why?

Ninjas can turn invisible, ethereal, teleport just like the monk except they do it more than once a day -and- deal more damage on average. If I'm playing a solo game, I'd take a ninja over a monk any day of the week.

[Woot Spitum]

But, at will...and, if I recall, with any living creature. If your DM allows the cheese and I'm remembering right, you can talk with TREES. Useless? I think not. And, even if you need the critter to have a laguage, "constantly" is longer than any apell duration. Plus, you need to know you need the spell ahead of time.

You do realize that without a good charisma bonus, or enough skill points to invest that talking to people isn't going to be your strong point? Additionally, talking with trees requires the speak with plants spell, not tongues, since trees can't speak under ordinary circumstances. Of course, this isn't that big of a deal considering speaking with something that is blind, deaf, has no sense of smell, touch, or taste, and an intelligence score of 0 is not perehaps the most useful ability in the game.

True, but can the fighter catch up with a fleeing, 40-foot speed BBEG? Everyone has pros and cons.

He doesn't need to if he just shoots him to death. Even if the BBEG gets 20 feet further away every roundif the fighter follows him, 40 feet if he doesn't, a longbow has a range of 100 feet. And a spellcaster with various ranged options in addition to things like overland flight beats them both in this department in any event. Of course, any BBEG worth his salt should be using teleport without error to escape, so you'll have to rely on a caster with the teleport anchor spell to stop him in any case.

[The Glyphstone]

The wizard goes 60 feet, max. Sure, a 1st-level monk can't do that, but a 1st-level monk can kick a 1st-level wizard's butt in melee.

Wizard: Magic Mis-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Acis spla-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Mage ar-
Monk:You're unconsious. Coup de grace.

Oh, and what's with the poor grammar?

there's this nifty little rule called Defensive Casting. Might want to go check it out - the DC for a 1st level spell is 16, a 1st-level Wizard with Con 14 can succeed on a 9.

[Gorbash]

But, at will...and, if I recall, with any living creature. If your DM allows the cheese and I'm remembering right, you can talk with TREES. Useless? I think not.

What can a TREE tell you? What it saw? What it heard? I'm sure it's useful if you're wondering how's the earth these days.

Also, most living creatures have a language. Most of them also have quite a few. Chances are, one of 4-6 party members will have it (those high-int characters tend to to that. Or bards who have ti as a class skill. Or you know they have a tongues spell).

But yeah... If you encounter a problem so impossible to solve through common sense, divinations, communes that only a nearby shrub can help you... Monks win. Bravo.

Alright. You sorta got us there. But why waste a fly spell or whatnot to pull a lever if you can teleport up there?

Mage Hand? You know the type that can be used at will with an item that costs 800 gold?

More than one high-level character/monster would have found an extra 40 hp of healing useful.

Somewhat true, but you just spent a standard action on that, and the big bad monster is standing next to you. At best, you bought yourself an extra round.

Gorbash covered this and you ignored it.

Yes, please elaborate how will you defeat the most common obstacle of mid to high lvls - Flight. And the rest, while you're at it.

[Arkaim]

Might a monk be useful against a BBEG that spams Mage's Disjunction and has a few cohorts just to counterspell the casters? Or is there a class better able to handle that sort of situation?

[Worira]

You have no idea what any of those classes even are, do you? Every single one is a primary meleer with full BAB and beats the pants off a monk without even trying.

Nitpick: Swordsage has 3/4 BAB, and depending on what was meant by "Swashbuckling Rogue", that has somewhere between 3/4 and full.

Also, I'd just like to point out that ghosts are awesome in combat.