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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Paladin View Post
    A) I have my 3.0 books in front of me
    B) WotC are pedantic about the newer D&D video games following their rules, and this is the way Neverwinter Nights works.
    Check your DMG - there is actually a large table (AFB, so I can only tell you that it's near the start of chapter 8) explaining what bonus types exist, what they can apply to, and with examples of what may grant them. On the same page, it not only explains that bonuses of the same type do not stack, but also explains the reasoning behind the rule.

    See also: the section on masterwork items in the PHB.

    I think the type of bonus was omitted from a couple of items by mistake, but even then they wouldn't stack (and the actual type should have been clear) - there is no such thing as an untyped bonus in 3.0.

    The only examples they give are AC bonuses, IIRC, but the rules should be pretty clear. The books also made quite a bit of fuss pointing out that inherent bonuses didn't stack.

    Neverwinter Nights actually does several things differently to 3.0 (Skills and Weapon Finesse, as a couple of examples the top of my head). I'm not sure where you get the idea that WotC were that pedantic about licensed games.

    Actually, from my experience of the video game adaptations, all of them worked as you describe - with the stacking rules only applying to AC bonuses. That is not how it works in the normal game, however.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2009-06-01 at 11:20 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #212
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Chapter 8 is the dictionary for me, but I do vaguely recall the passage you talked of. IIRC it stated that bonues from the same source do not stack, so multiple castings of Bull's Strength wouldn't keep pushing your score up, but casting Bull's Strength and wearing a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength simultaneously would result in a higher score than doing either alone.

    Bioware worked closely with WotC on the first game and claimed they were forced to basically redesign a lot of stuff multiple times because they didn't work like Core.

    It'd be rather funny if we were doin' it wrung.
    Last edited by Grey Paladin; 2009-06-01 at 11:50 AM.
    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Paladin View Post
    Casting Bull's Strength and wearing a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength simultaneously would result in a higher score than doing either alone.
    [...]
    It'd be rather funny if we were doin' it wrung.
    You are. You are doing it extremely wrong. If the world worked this way, I could hand you a character with 120 strength pretty easily. As it stands, it might take me a couple of hours of work.
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    What, you mean like how Dodge bonuses stack?

    "Save VS poison."
    "Ok *rolls* ...17. I dodge it."
    "What?"
    "I dodge the poison."
    "But...it's inside you."
    "That's what she said."
    Done this a couple of times. It's worth the tremendous amount of effort required.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidesinger View Post
    You are. You are doing it extremely wrong. If the world worked this way, I could hand you a character with 120 strength pretty easily. As it stands, it might take me a couple of hours of work.
    Except that the bonus was limited to +12, and it was 3.0, but nice try.
    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Paladin View Post
    Except that the bonus was limited to +12, and it was 3.0, but nice try.
    :) 12 per bonus type, and excluding polymorph. 3.0 was a very funny place.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    +12 from Magical bonuses, not including Inherent. Polymorph set your strength to a certain base value and so got around it.
    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayabalard View Post
    he's the OP... the guy who started the thread. It's kind of silly to tell him that he's not staying on the correct topic. If he wants to include discussion of homebrew and you don't, you should probably start your own thread.
    So "monks are fine because I bent the rules to accommodate them?"

    Oh, you white knights.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    So "monks are fine because I bent the rules to accommodate them?"
    Not at all... keep on talking about how you play, and your experiences with monks. But it's a bit absurd for someone to tell the OP to start his own thread if he wants to deviate from a strictly RAW discussion.
    Kungaloosh!

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    I know Icewind Dale II only implemented the stacking rules for A.C. bonuses. It also kept quite a lot of AD&D elements around - even elves being harder to resurrect.

    Neverwinter Nights I implemented a lot more of the game (pretty much everything Icewind Dale II used, and more), but there were still differences in the rules and how they worked.

    At no point in the 3.0 books do I recall seeing a rule that stated that characters are limited to a specific bonus to any given thing, but bonuses of the same type can stack.

    It should be somewhere in the chapter on magic items - big table listing bonuses and their sources, and a "Behind the DM Screen" section explaining the stacking rules and why they work the way they do.

    Which year was your DMG printed? Chapter 7 should be 'Rewards' and Chapter 8 should be 'Magic Items', IIRC. After that there is an appendix, which starts with a list of all items available in a large town.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2009-06-01 at 04:46 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    It's a bad pun on "chi", you see.


    Yeah, and that's also the only thing modifying the Monk's attack. Except the Wizard's will be higher, because he doesn't have to spread thin across five stats. You're looking at an attack against, say, AC 17 (Grey Elf Wizard with Mage Armour or Shield and 16 DEX, (14 base plus racial), and 21 AC of he has both up) with your modifier to hit of maybe +3. At the very best, since you want WIS and STR over DEX already. That's a laughable chance, whereas even Magic Missile hits 100% of the time.
    1: No, it's bad spelling. Bad spelling that will be corrected ASAP.
    2: Alright, then. I'll be posting results of a wizard v. monk battle assuming as many averages as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by quick_comment View Post
    Level 1 monk vs level 1 wizard.

    Wizard:
    Lets say 10 in all stats, but 16 in con and 16 in int. He has 7 hp. He has 2 first level spells per day. Assume he is unbuffed and naked.

    Monk:
    Lets say 18 in all stats. He has 12 hp.

    The monk has a 70% chance of going first.

    If the monk acts first:
    Round 1:
    Monk charges wizard. He has a +6 attack bonus, vs the wizards AC 10, so he has a 80% chance of hitting. If he hits, he deals 1d6+4 damage and forces a DC 14 fort save or stun. He has a 50% chance of doing enough damage to kill the wizard. So he kills the wizard 40% of the time.

    The wizard has a +3 fort save, so he has a 45% chance to save against the stunning fist. So the monk has a 44% chance of stunning the wizard. In the first round, we have a 40% chance of killing the wizard, and a 22% chance of hitting him, stunning him and not killing him. So a 2/3rds chance at killing/stunning him.

    If the wizard doesnt die, he then casts color spray. The monk has a +6 save vs a DC 14. So he has a 60% chance of passing the save. If he fails the save he dies.

    If the monk pases the save, he then flurries. He makes two attacks each at a +2 bonus, so each attack has a 60% chance of hitting. Either one of those kills the wizard, so the wizard almost certainly dies here.

    If the wizard goes first, he opens with a color spray. He has a 40% chance of winning right away. After that, we go with the odds above.

    So for these characters, the monk has a 46% chance of winning initative and then killing the wizard and a 12% chance of losing initative and killing the wizard. This means the wizard has a 100-46-12% chance of winning, or 42% chance of winning.

    So even with giving every advantage to the monk (absurd stats on the monk, ****ty ones on the wizard, within charging distance, and the wizard does not have mage armor cast already AND the monk always kills the mage on his second round of attacking), the monk still only wins slightly better than half the time.

    If we allow the distance to increase, or the wizard to cast mage armor before the battle, the odds suddenly increase greatly in the wizards favor. And if we start optimizing, there isnt much you can do for a monk at level 1. For a level 1 wizard, he can take precocious apprentice and be able to cast level 2 spells, which means the monk is blinded by glitterdust, no save, or cant hit the wizard who is levitating.
    Well...someone ninja'd me. I got different results, though. I'll stick to the one that had the best wizard's results. (He got about a 64% chance.)

    To those who claimed I didn't debunk anything: Yes, I did, I debunked one specific use of overland flight. Exactly what I attempted to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steward View Post
    Monks are pretty decent in my experience.
    I wholeheartedly agree.
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2009-06-01 at 04:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Ovecoming Hardness? Innuendo aside, Acid damage. Sonic.
    Not true; you're misreading the rules.
    Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit.
    Hardness applies normally. It's just that other energy types do worse:
    Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.
    Acid and sonic attacks aren't reduced before you apply hardness, but you do apply hardness to objects just as you apply DR to creatures. The game authors just assumed that went without saying when mentioning those first two energy types, so they didn't say it.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    So random monk question.
    If you have a monk with a wisdom penalty does it take away from your ac?

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Warforged.
    Setting specific races are not really very good counterargument. You can't assume that people are going to be playing with them.
    Kungaloosh!

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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gilded Duke View Post
    So random monk question.
    If you have a monk with a wisdom penalty does it take away from your ac?
    No. If negative, nothing gets added.

    When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

  16. - Top - End - #226
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Nice, I have a few builds I've been working on where it would be efficient to just dump wisdom entirely but still use some monk abilities.

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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    The book says 2003, but I distinctly remember buying it at 2000 . . hrm.
    Could be a translation issue.

    Aside from Discipline, and possibly this, NWN follows the rules very closely.
    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence

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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold
    Second of all, I was debunking (specifically) one specific use of overland flight. Yeah, the wizard can do it, but the monk can save him the spell slots. They've got better uses, like escape. (From a monk. )
    Quote Originally Posted by Teron
    You haven't debunked anything. Overland flight lasts an hour per level. The wizard can cast it at the start of the day and use it to bypass obstacles and evade monks whenever he comes across either, with the same negligible amount of effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    To those who claimed I didn't debunk anything: Yes, I did, I debunked one specific use of overland flight. Exactly what I attempted to do.
    Something is very wrong here. I'm posting in English, aren't I?

    Let's try this in even simpler terms: overland flight lasts all day. Therefore, if it is worth casting at all (and it certainly is), no single usage is too trivial. The wizard has already cast overland flight anyway, so it doesn't cost him anything to fly whenever he damn well feels like it.

  19. - Top - End - #229

    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gilded Duke View Post
    Nice, I have a few builds I've been working on where it would be efficient to just dump wisdom entirely but still use some monk abilities.
    Would those abilities be better or worse than the ability to do 4x damage as a std action? Or the ability to teleport as a swift action?
    Last edited by quick_comment; 2009-06-01 at 05:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Paladin View Post
    The book says 2003, but I distinctly remember buying it at 2000 . . hrm.
    Could be a translation issue.

    Aside from Discipline, and possibly this, NWN follows the rules very closely.
    I bought my copy in '02-ish. It seems there were some pretty big changes between the two print runs, so we could both be right.

    Does your PHB have Polymorph as utterly broken (gain all Ex abilities) or just pretty broken (gain Ex abilities of specific, listed types)?

  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Dear GreatWyrmAbby,

    I first just wanted to say love your column and read it daily.

    Anyway, I have been having trouble with my Monk friend. He comes home after work and he seems despondant. He tells me he feels like he has no place in the world. I don't know what to say to him him. How would you respond?

    I do my best to try to help him through this thing, sometimes surprising him with Greater Magic Weapons, Mind Blanks, Greater Mighty Wallops and even a 3.0 Empowered [Animal's Ability] suite. But he still struggles to keep up with the neighbors. (After he just got through another round of lay-offs and heard both Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior got promotions last week, he cried.)

    I wouldn't be so concerned, if he weren't in so dangerous a line of work. I think it's starting to get to him. He had a nightmare last night about a Purple Worm. It was running amok in the middle of town and everybody was looking at him. He said he had the strange feeling they wanted to see him either punch it in the face or wrestle it to the ground. He woke up screaming.

    Now I might be able to accept this, but it has always been a problem (just it used to be Vrocks, and Giants before that, and Owlbears before that) and I'm starting to need my sleep. My own performance has been slipping -- he is becoming too much of a disturbance for me to memorize my spells in the morning, and without them I can't make a living (I never expected my Profession: Gambler ranks to keep food on my table, you see).

    He may have to go.

    Things were so much simpler in the days when he could occasionally beat up first level wizards. But now he finds himself at work and doesn't know what his job is supposed to be. I don't think his boss or co-workers remember either. My friend is afraid the next round of layoffs will be the end of him.

    He's only really qualified for work as a sherpa or gigolo anymore.

    So Greatwyrm, what would you advise my friend the Monk to do if you were in my shoes?

    How could he make himself shine to avoid downsizing? How could he make himself survive and thrive in the dangers he faces on a day-to-day basis? How can he find a strength of his own to feel a sense of self-worth again, living next to Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior?

    Sincerely,
    Concerned
    Last edited by Goatman_Ted; 2009-06-02 at 09:12 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by quick_comment View Post
    Would those abilities be better or worse than the ability to do 4x damage as a std action? Or the ability to teleport as a swift action?
    Haha, I'm not trying to argue that at all. The monk sucks when used to make an unarmed combatant. I occasionally use the monk class as part of a larger build. It is a great way to get into Psionic Fist for example.

    While there are better UberChargers flurrying with a quarterstaff with it wielded 2 Handed as a full attack on a charge with leap attack shock trooper etc can be a lot of fun.

    The specific build I'm working on now takes Fist of Forest and Deepwarden and combines it with Drunken Master. Drunken Master's Drink Like a Demon ability lets them pump Strength and Dex at the expense of Int and Wisdom.

    With Deepwarden and Fist of the Forest you get x2 Constitution to AC but lose Dex to AC. This would allow the build to dump dex, not need much wisdom, and focus on Strength and Constitution.

    The main reason for the build though is to make a dwarf which gets significantly more powerful the more drunk it gets.

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman_Ted View Post
    Dear GreatWyrmAbby,

    I first just wanted to say love your column and read it daily.

    Anyway, I have been having trouble with my Monk friend. He comes home after work and he seems despondant. He tells me he feels like he has no place in the world. I don't know what to say to him him. How would you respond?

    I do my best to try to help him through this thing, sometimes surprising him with Greater Magic Weapons, Mind Blanks, Greater Mighty Wallops and even a 3.0 Empowered [Animal's Ability] suite. But he still struggles to keep up with the neighbors. (After he just got through another round of lay-offs and heard both Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior got promotions last week, he cried.)

    I wouldn't be so concerned, if he weren't in so dangerous a line of work. I think it's starting to get to him. He had a nightmare last night about a Purple Worm. It was running amok in the middle of town and everybody was looking at him. He said he had the strange feeling they wanted to see him either punch it in the face or wrestle it to the ground. He woke up screaming.

    Now I might be able to accept this, but it has always been a problem (just it used to be Vrocks, and Giants before that, and Owlbears before that) and I'm starting to need my sleep. My own performance has been slipping -- he is becoming too much of a disturbance for me to memorize my spells in the morning, and without them I can't make a living (I never expected my Profession: Gambler ranks to keep food on my table, you see).

    He may have to go.

    Things were so much simpler in the days when he could occasionally beat up first level wizards. But now he finds himself at work and doesn't know what his job is supposed to be. I don't think his boss or co-workers remember either. My friend is afraid the next round of layoffs will be the end of him.

    He's only really qualified for work as a sherpa or bellboy anymore.

    So Greatwyrm, what would you advise my friend the Monk to do if you were in my shoes?

    How could he make himself shine to avoid downsizing? How could he make himself survive and thrive in the dangers he faces on a day-to-day basis? How can he find a strength of his own to feel a sense of self-worth again, living next to Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior?

    Sincerely,
    Concerned
    Concerned?

    I cry shennanigans! Frohman doesn't wrote that literately!
    Remember how I was wishing for the peace of oblivion a minute ago?

    Yeah. That hasn't exactly changed with more knowledge of the situation. -Security Chief Victor Jones, formerly of the UESC Marathon.

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  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman_Ted View Post
    Dear GreatWyrmAbby,

    [...]
    Sincerely,
    Concerned
    What do these forums use in the place of cookies? What do I hand a man who just produced win and glory without being an ass?
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tidesinger View Post
    What do these forums use in the place of cookies? What do I hand a man who just produced win and glory without being an ass?
    An internet will do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    An internet will do.
    Rutskarn gave me a hero token.

    Admittedly, as far as I know, it's the only one.

    And we give cookies too. Just less of them.
    Remember how I was wishing for the peace of oblivion a minute ago?

    Yeah. That hasn't exactly changed with more knowledge of the situation. -Security Chief Victor Jones, formerly of the UESC Marathon.

    X-Com avatar by BRC. He's good folks.

  27. - Top - End - #237
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Teron View Post
    Something is very wrong here. I'm posting in English, aren't I?

    Let's try this in even simpler terms: overland flight lasts all day. Therefore, if it is worth casting at all (and it certainly is), no single usage is too trivial. The wizard has already cast overland flight anyway, so it doesn't cost him anything to fly whenever he damn well feels like it.
    All right, I'll reiterate. This is the last time I'll post this. Overland Flight is average maneverability. You can't fly straight up with it, even though Xykon did. That's what I initially meant, that's what I proved.

    Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to read the rest of the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman_Ted View Post
    Dear GreatWyrmAbby,

    I first just wanted to say love your column and read it daily.

    Anyway, I have been having trouble with my Monk friend. He comes home after work and he seems despondant. He tells me he feels like he has no place in the world. I don't know what to say to him him. How would you respond?

    I do my best to try to help him through this thing, sometimes surprising him with Greater Magic Weapons, Mind Blanks, Greater Mighty Wallops and even a 3.0 Empowered [Animal's Ability] suite. But he still struggles to keep up with the neighbors. (After he just got through another round of lay-offs and heard both Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior got promotions last week, he cried.)

    I wouldn't be so concerned, if he weren't in so dangerous a line of work. I think it's starting to get to him. He had a nightmare last night about a Purple Worm. It was running amok in the middle of town and everybody was looking at him. He said he had the strange feeling they wanted to see him either punch it in the face or wrestle it to the ground. He woke up screaming.

    Now I might be able to accept this, but it has always been a problem (just it used to be Vrocks, and Giants before that, and Owlbears before that) and I'm starting to need my sleep. My own performance has been slipping -- he is becoming too much of a disturbance for me to memorize my spells in the morning, and without them I can't make a living (I never expected my Profession: Gambler ranks to keep food on my table, you see).

    He may have to go.

    Things were so much simpler in the days when he could occasionally beat up first level wizards. But now he finds himself at work and doesn't know what his job is supposed to be. I don't think his boss or co-workers remember either. My friend is afraid the next round of layoffs will be the end of him.

    He's only really qualified for work as a sherpa or gigolo anymore.

    So Greatwyrm, what would you advise my friend the Monk to do if you were in my shoes?

    How could he make himself shine to avoid downsizing? How could he make himself survive and thrive in the dangers he faces on a day-to-day basis? How can he find a strength of his own to feel a sense of self-worth again, living next to Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior?

    Sincerely,
    Concerned
    Okay, seriously, it depends on his level. For the first few levels, use a quarterstaff. ALWAYS have a sling or a bunch of shuriken or something. Try to minimise your weaknesses. A monk's belt is, although helpful, something to put on the magic item chopping block unless you find one. You should use ability-enhancing items (for your lower important stats, especially). Get wings of flying and other mobility-enhancing items. Spring Attack, even with its bad prereqs, is almost a must. At higher levels, they can't get you without charging if you use that feat. Then, you can jump right out of reach. Get wands/scrolls and ranks in UMD for obscure capabilities. Overall, never stand still except to Full Attack or something. And never think you're useless. Yeah! You're use-impaired!
    :me: Haley, that doesn't help.
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2009-06-02 at 06:02 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #238
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Okay, seriously, it depends on his level. For the first few levels, use a quarterstaff. ALWAYS have a sling or a bunch of shuriken or something. Try to minimise your weaknesses. A monk's belt is, although helpful, something to put on the magic item chopping block unless you find one. You should use ability-enhancing items (for your lower important stats, especially). Get wings of flying and other mobility-enhancing items. Spring Attack, even with its bad prereqs, is almost a must. At higher levels, they can't get you without charging if you use that feat. Then, you can jump right out of reach. Get wands/scrolls and ranks in UMD for obscure capabilities. Overall, never stand still except to Full Attack or something.
    Your comments and your 'fixes' have more or less neglected the one important question:

    What do you do?


    • It's not damage (you aren't Power Attacking for very much between MAD and low BA, it's more difficult for you to get Pounce than most classes, you have trouble overcoming DR with most monk weapons).
    • It's not irreplicable skills (Most of your skill list is mobility, which is more or less replaced by flight).
    • It's not disablement past low levels (Monster Fortitude saves and Grapple checks scale too fast for most non-Psychic Warrior/Totemist characters to keep up; casters have other defenses; combat maneuvers like Disarms depend on you beating enemy attack rolls).
    • It's not battlefield control (you don't get reach or controller class abilities and you don't use Stand Still well; unless you something to do, you aren't enough of a threat to draw enemy fire on your own).


    The Monk isn't even very rewarding to buff: SR makes support casting into a gamble and common mass-buffs aren't particularly useful for them (Mass Fly means they have to stick around at the same speed as slower party members, Haste doesn't help much with Monks who already have Speed enhancements and do little damage with their attacks anyway).

    As far as I can see, the Monk's entire schtick is survival. And that doesn't count for much if you can't use it to keep the rest of the party safe.

    Edit:
    Other melee classes that I consider to function -- like the ToB classes, Psychic Warrior, Binder, Duskblade, Totemist and even Knight -- can help their parties beyond just being a warm body in the group.

    On top of wider skill lists and more expansive arrays of out-of-combat abilities, they have abilities that generate large amounts of damage, disable enemies or attract attacks -- all while retaining mobility.

    The Monk doesn't, unless you count a per-day Fortitude-targeting, crit-vulnerable-only melee attack made at a low attack bonus. (One any character can pick up at the cost of a feat.)

    So unless you're doing something special with your Monks, that just isn't going to cut it.
    Last edited by Goatman_Ted; 2009-06-02 at 06:51 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #239
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    GreatWyrmGold's Avatar

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    Thumbs down Re: Out of curiosity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatman_Ted View Post
    Your comments and your 'fixes' have more or less neglected the one important question:

    What do you do?


    • It's not damage (you aren't Power Attacking for very much between MAD and low BA, it's more difficult for you to get Pounce than most classes, you have trouble overcoming DR with most monk weapons).
    • It's not irreplicable skills (Most of your skill list is mobility, which is more or less replaced by flight).
    • It's not disablement past low levels (Monster Fortitude saves and Grapple checks scale too fast for most non-Psychic Warrior/Totemist characters to keep up; casters have other defenses; combat maneuvers like Disarms depend on you beating enemy attack rolls).
    • It's not battlefield control (you don't get reach or controller class abilities and you don't use Stand Still well; unless you something to do, you aren't enough of a threat to draw enemy fire on your own).


    The Monk isn't even very rewarding to buff: SR makes support casting into a gamble and common mass-buffs aren't particularly useful for them (Mass Fly means they have to stick around at the same speed as slower party members, Haste doesn't help much with Monks who already have Speed enhancements and do little damage with their attacks anyway).

    As far as I can see, the Monk's entire schtick is survival. And that doesn't count for much if you can't use it to keep the rest of the party safe.

    Edit:
    Other melee classes that I consider to function -- like the ToB classes, Psychic Warrior, Binder, Duskblade, Totemist and even Knight -- can help their parties beyond just being a warm body in the group.

    On top of wider skill lists and more expansive arrays of out-of-combat abilities, they have abilities that generate large amounts of damage, disable enemies or attract attacks -- all while retaining mobility.

    The Monk doesn't, unless you count a per-day Fortitude-targeting, crit-vulnerable-only melee attack made at a low attack bonus. (One any character can pick up at the cost of a feat.)

    So unless you're doing something special with your Monks, that just isn't going to cut it.
    Okay, 1st of all, you only get SR at 20th level, making it not a concern for most adventurers. Plus, it can be lowered.
    2nd, Monks can use Spring Attack like no one else can.
    3rd,
    Spoiler
    Show
    I can do spoilers.

    Seriously, I replied to everything he said.


    Edit: 4th, Stunning Fist isn't just one feat. You have to take Improved Unarmed Strike (useless), and you get only 1/4 the stunning a monk your level would.
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2009-06-02 at 08:14 PM.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  30. - Top - End - #240
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
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    Default Re: Out of curiosity...

    Diamond Soul is a 13th level ability and Spring Attack doesn't matter if you can't do anything meaningful with your one attack per round*.

    (*Well, it keeps you safe-ish... until the enemies realize you're at a convenient distance to avoid doing any battlefield control, to be safely targeted by enemy AoE attacks and to be charged.)


    I'm still looking forward to hearing what you do for the party.
    Last edited by Goatman_Ted; 2009-06-02 at 08:29 PM.

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