[3.5] Advice to take over city from a Bard

[Frosty]

There is a level 13 straight female Aasimar Bard of unknown power whom you know is up to no good. In fact, that bard has spent the past few days influencing people and trying to basically take over a metropolis of a city-state (population: 1 million). You yourself, being the more Good of the two (you believe her to be evil, but you can't prove it because the bard has a special feat that fools all alignment-detection abilities), wish to take over the town for yourself whether it be directly as its ruler or be the power behind the Town Council. The town itself has an average alignment of True Neutral. The Town Council average skews a bit more towards Lawful Neutral, although there are sure to be a few corrupt members who may be more LE or NE.

Assuming you are a level 13 straight female Tiefling (modified to not give a -2 to CHA) Beguiler, and knowing that your opponent has a few days of head start, how would you go about taking this city? You have no party to support you. Killing the bard is allowed, but that may not necessarily get you the city since presumeably she has many supporters by now.

[Justin B.]

Find evidence that the Aasimar bard has broken the law, present it. Use your magic powers to find people she has bribed, and cause them to confess to taking said bribes, so on and so forth.

It's a Bard, it can't be lawful. It's broken the laws at some point, you just need to find evidence of it.

Other than that, go about it with the same terms she has, after you kill her. Once she's dead, she's out of the way, meaning you can step in and use your awesome social skills to influence stuff in your direction.

[Frosty]

Don't forget, trying to kill the opponent could be very risky. You don't know for sure you're stronger.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Aasimar or Lesser Aasimar?

If she's a humanoid, hit her with Dominate Person. With a Shadow Contingency:Dominate Person. And then roll Init, burn any spells/items you get to boost Init, and cast Dominate Person. Let her take over the city, you take over her.

If she's Outsider, it gets harder. You could go Charm X or simlar to get her on your side, but it's less certain, and you have to be more careful with what you advise her to do. Feeblemind is also a pretty nice massive nerf to drop on her in the middle of a diplomacy check.

[woodenbandman]

Don't forget, trying to kill the opponent could be very risky. You don't know for sure you're stronger.

I believe that, as a beguiler, you do know that. But I think for the sake of argument it should be argued that the bard is higher level than you.

[Frosty]

We are both Outsiders, so only Dominate Monster can dominate us. She is supposedly the same level, but I don't know her exact build or spell choices oritems.

Also, do you think that Beguilers can out-fight Bards?

[The_Werebear]

We are both Outsiders, so only Dominate Monster can dominate us. She is supposedly the same level, but I don't know her exact build or spell choices oritems.

Also, do you think that Beguilers can out-fight Bards?

I really doubt the beguiler himsef could take her, especially as an outsider. The beautiful thing about the class is that there's no need to fight her alone. Wait until she is in a crowd, then drop Incite Riot or Mass Suggestion on the crowd to put her in a massive, painful brawl.

Alternately, since she has exposed herself first, she is known to at least some council members. You are not. Confirm she has had dealings with the council, then send a mob of bewitched locals to attack the council on her "behalf". Make sure they will fail, and make sure their is an obvious aura of enchantment on them. If you are there "Warning the council of the danger they face" and can throw some Suggestions on them (IIRC, Beguilers can hide their spellcasting very easily, so no one will know), you can all but garuntee they think the bard is going to try a hostile takeover.

[Frosty]

The problem is all the tricks you mentioned, the Bard can do the same. ICly, the townsfolk may not know that she's a bard, or even those that do know may not know that bards heavily favor enchantments. And if we were to start trying ti pin things on each other, she's got the higher Charisma bonus by far. How badly things might go might even depend on which Diplomacy system is being used.

I there are multiple charms and suggestions going on, I think there's an opposed CHA check correct? I need some Circlets of Persuasion...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The problem is all the tricks you mentioned, the Bard can do the same. ICly, the townsfolk may not know that she's a bard, or even those that do know may not know that bards heavily favor enchantments. And if we were to start trying ti pin things on each other, she's got the higher Charisma bonus by far. How badly things might go might even depend on which Diplomacy system is being used.

I there are multiple charms and suggestions going on, I think there's an opposed CHA check correct? I need some Circlets of Persuasion...

You're not beating her Cha checks. That's the problem. Her being even slightly focused on Cha, Dip, Bluff means you lose. How much money are you willing to spend? Expendables may be the only way to get enough of a boost.

I would say a Beguiler is better than a Bard at casting, but a Bard is better at actually fighting, and most of your spells are hindered because of the type and the fact that if it does go to open combat, she has more support.

[Frosty]

I've got standard WBL for 13th level, but most of it would already be tied up in permanent equipment.

What tactics would you suggest to avoid open confrontation while quietly building up my own base of support? The bard may or may not know I'm there trying to undermine her. Perhaps even pretend to be her underling? But that may be dangerous. I do have the False Pretenses [Spelltouched] feat, so i can pretend to be charmed or dominatd. With Glibness I should be able to bluff the bard?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I've got standard WBL for 13th level, but most of it would already be tied up in permanent equipment.

Essentially, how much are you willing to spend on Scrolls, Staves, Bribes, and Material Components?

What tactics would you suggest to avoid open confrontation while quietly building up my own base of support? The bard may or may not know I'm there trying to undermine her. Perhaps even pretend to be her underling? But that may be dangerous. I do have the False Pretenses [Spelltouched] feat, so i can pretend to be charmed or dominatd. With Glibness I should be able to bluff the bard?

Yes, yes you should. I was thinking opposed Bluff checks to make people do what you want over the Bard, but since Wis is one of the only dump stats she can afford, you can beat her Sense Motive. You can get close and do whatever.

Also, is this a PC or an NPC you're facing, and if NPC, how much does your DM fudge?

[The Gilded Duke]

Find out a way to make her waste her actions. If she doesn't know who you are, try to make her worried enough to spend her time casting legend lore. In the meantime figure out a way to silence her, and then provoke a mob to violence against her, if you can try to get it to use the mob template.

Or just use diplomacy on her.

Also, she probably isn't an Aasimar. It isn't hard to disguise yourself as a different race.

[Frosty]

Does she even get Legend Lore at this level? She has only 5th level spells I believe. This is an NPC and is designed to be a challenge for any social-oriented PC.

I'm willing to spend up to about 20k.