How would you tell if...?

[Ixahinon]

Your abilities have been damaged? I mean, three of them are obvious.

Strength - When that 100 pound backpack you are carrying suddenly become like a lead weight.

Dexterity - When you find it much harder to remain on your feet/be as nimble in the armor you are wearing/stumbling a lot.

Constitution - When you find yourself catching a lot of diseases never being a problem before, and your ability to tolerate pain (lack of hp) decreases dramatically.

Intelligence - Well....when you are stupid.

But what about the others? How can you tell...in character...when your Wisdom and/or Charisma has been compromised? Depending on the class...I can see a cleric or a monk noticing Wisdom quickly, as their link to their deity has been tarnished somehow...or a Sorcerer or Bard noticing Charisma, as they don't have that force of personality they once had. A Sorcerer failing a rutine spell, or a Bard failing to woo the standard crowd in an Inn. But....how would a fighter, or wizard know?

Would Wisdom be linked to like...superstition? But if so, how would someone know they are becoming more superstitious? And Charisma doesn't actually Make you look uglier...and it's likely a person isn't gonna stop and say...'hey...I think I'm being more of an ass today'

Any ideas?

[Hat-Trick]

Wisdom would be like, "How did you sneak up on me? You've never been able to before."

Charisma, "Hey that barmaid is hot, I should say something... Oh, but what if she rejects me? Wait, I don't think like that!"

[The Glyphstone]

Wisdom - your surroundings suddenly seem duller or hazier, like you've developed a spontaneous head cold that's interfering with your vision or hearing. It is the key ability for Spot and Listen, after all.

[Flickerdart]

Wisdom: You suddenly awake from a daydream to find that you are holding a troop of orcs at bay with a spatula wearing what appears to be a jetpack made of a keg of spirits and a wick.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, with Wisdom you might catch yourself being absent-minded or less observant than usual. Or you might notice a general lack of resolve, like you just don't care as much about stuff you normally care about. You might also start believing whatever anybody says.

With Charisma you might feel less bold, or notice a lack of self-confidence. Or if it's really bad, you'll probably try giving an empassioned speech and end up tripping over your own tongue or something, or you might lose an argument you expected to win. Also, people will start to ignore you a little.

That's all I can think of.

[Rhiannon87]

Coming from a game where we've had a lot of ability damage (my character once got hit with something that did INT/WIS/CHA damage all at the same time), we've basically played it like this.

Lowered INT usually shows up as not being able to remember or understand things as well. This one is, as the OP said, pretty easy for the PC to figure out-- they know they should be smarter than this!

We usually do WIS damage as losing common sense. You're much more trusting, more naive, more inclined to do stupid things. (Cue conversation with my undercover spy whose INT was down to 12 and WIS was down to 3 saying "Man, I am really not supposed to tell you guys this...") Due to the nature of WIS damage hitting you in the common sense/observance sector, you might not notice that anything's wrong.

And CHA damage is personality changes, for the worse. You're more snappish and irritable, more introverted, less patient with people, etc. If a high CHA means you have an attractive, compelling personality, then a lowered CHA means you're obnoxious. Depending on how the other mental stats are doing, you might know something is off. "Why am I acting like this, I've never gotten annoyed at X before...?", something like that.

Then again, if you've just taken 4 points of INT damage, 14 points of WIS damage (and gotten healed up to 3), and 7 points of CHA damage, you're not thinking clearly at all. God, that poison sucked.

[Zeta Kai]

Sooo many people get Charisma wrong. Just wrong. The books say almost NOTHING about Charisma making you pretty. Sorcerers don't cast their spells with the power of Pretty. Charisma is a measurement of your force of personality. It's your self-confidence, your charm, & your strength of will (which may not be the same as willpower).

Losing Charisma would make you feel more withdrawn, more shy, more bland, &/or more introverted. You would turn from Mr. Dynamic to Johnny Wallflower.

[Zaq]

It's not hard to tell when your mental capacities have been diminished. It's pretty easy to tell when you're drunk, or your cold medication is making you slow-witted, or when you're too tired to think properly. All of those are, I would say, situations you can represent as penalties to your mental stats.

[Ixahinon]

Hmm...makes sense. My character has a natural charisma of 10, and he's always greedy/'in your face'/instigator type of guy...I guess I just up it a bit more now that he's lost 2 more points. Just hope a party member realizes I'm being more of an ass than usual..cause I don't think my character would make that kind of observation on his own...he likes being the ass.

As for Wisdom, I'll have to work on it...never thought about the listen/spot aspect...makes complete sense now that it's pointed out.

[Sanguine]

Sooo many people get Charisma wrong. Just wrong. The books say NOTHING about Charisma making you pretty. Sorcerers don't cast their spell with the power of pretty. Charisma is a measurement of your force of personality. It's your self-confidence, your charm, & your strength of will (which may not be the same as willpower).

Losing Charisma would make you feel more withdrawn, more shy, more bland, &/or more introverted. You would turn from Mr. Dynamic to Johnny Wallflower.

*Looks at 3.5 player's handbook* Actually it does.

Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

[Dagren]

*Looks at 3.5 player's handbook* Actually it does.

Yeah, but it's listed last. Obviously not supposed to be the major meaning.

[RS14]

Constitution would also be apparent because you would tire faster.

Charisma might be noticeable as a lack of self confidence.

Wisdom would be a lack of perception. Absent mindedness.

[Zeta Kai]

*Looks at 3.5 player's handbook* Actually it does.

Semantics. My post above has been edited, but my point still stands.

[Sanguine]

Yeah, but it's listed last. Obviously not supposed to be the major meaning.

Never said it was, merely that by the book it does affect your appearance.

[Ellye]

I mean, three of them are obvious.

Strength - When that 100 pound backpack you are carrying suddenly become like a lead weight.

Dexterity - When you find it much harder to remain on your feet/be as nimble in the armor you are wearing/stumbling a lot.

Constitution - When you find yourself catching a lot of diseases never being a problem before, and your ability to tolerate pain (lack of hp) decreases dramatically.

Intelligence - Well....when you are stupid.

Your Intelligence is damaged!
(Heh, just kidding! )


I can easily imagine how it would feel to have a damaged Charisma, but I'm not really sure if I can explain it. Know those days that wake up in a strange mood, feeling without self-confidence, lacking any desire to socialize, and everyone looks at you in a different way? Kinda like this, probably.

[Dagren]

Never said it was, merely that by the book it does affect your appearance.

OK, maybe I'm getting confused about who said what. It's just that a lot of people seem to be saying of charisma and attractiveness "that's what it does". Not "that's one of the things it does", but just "that's what it does", as if that's all there is to it, while really it seems to be a pretty minor aspect of the stat. (How many things are listed above it after all)

[Sanguine]

OK, maybe I'm getting confused about who said what. It's just that a lot of people seem to be saying of charisma and attractiveness "that's what it does". Not "that's one of the things it does", but just "that's what it does", as if that's all there is to it, while really it seems to be a pretty minor aspect of the stat. (How many things are listed above it after all)

My feeling exactly on the matter. But I thought it needed to be acknowledged that it did in fact affect it even if it is one of it's tertiary effects.

[shadzar]

You wouldn't tell because you wouldn't know these metagame things exist a they do.

Your backpack you don't know the exact wieght, nor how much you can carry, and maybe you are just weaker today due to common cold. Which could mean your "CON" was down as well.

There are too many factors to weigh into anything to replicate knowledge of these metagame terms without knowledge of the metagame.

Then what happens when the character in0game learns that s/he is a character in a game?

[Ixahinon]

You wouldn't tell because you wouldn't know these metagame things exist a they do.

Your backpack you don't know the exact wieght, nor how much you can carry, and maybe you are just weaker today due to common cold. Which could mean your "CON" was down as well.

There are too many factors to weigh into anything to replicate knowledge of these metagame terms without knowledge of the metagame.

Then what happens when the character in0game learns that s/he is a character in a game?

yea...not gonna believe that at all. Yes...I am confering metagame phrases with in character actions...but on the same token. Strength is strength in the game, Intelligence is intelligenge, as with Dexterity. The others, maybe not so much.

As for not knowing th exact weight of your backpack? Or how much you can carry? You can not be serious. No..they didn't have weight lifting dumbells in the game...but they do know what they can and can't lift. My character knows it can't lift a 500 pound boulder, he knows that while he can lift 150pound body with about 50 pounds of weight, it is extremely tiring, he knows that it is extremely uncomfortable to carry 100 pounds a long distance, and he knows that pushing around 50 pounds of dead weight is work...but not anything extrenuating.

When you are carrying something that you KNOW the weight of, (Not the numeric value of the weight, but how heavy it is) and then suddently hit with something that drains strength...you are GOING to feel the differance.

You are going to realize that you are more sickly, and getting tired too fast, compared to how you usually are. Perhaps not in a day, or even two days...but it will be realized by you within the week or so. Same with Dexterity, and Intelligence.

It's the subtle things I have trouble with...wisdom and Charisma. I don't really take note of how acute my sight is on a day to day basic...or how charismatic I am on a day to day basic...I do take note of how heavy things are, how sick I am on a monthly basis, and how hard a tarrain I am covering.

[RebelRogue]

For me, Charisma damage takes the the form of loss of self-confidence and (in severe cases) depressive, joyless states. The Joystealers pretty much turned me on to that idea, and to me it makes sense.

As for Wisdom loss, you're probably the last character to know, but to your friends it will be clearer: you'll be more childish and annoying than usual.

[Devils_Advocate]

It's probably most difficult to realize that you've lost Wisdom. It could be hard to notice that you've become poor at noticing things.

"Why are you so spaced out all of the sudden?"
"Wha? No I'm not."

[shadzar]

yea...not gonna believe that at all. Yes...I am confering metagame phrases with in character actions...but on the same token. Strength is strength in the game, Intelligence is intelligenge, as with Dexterity. The others, maybe not so much.

As for not knowing th exact weight of your backpack? Or how much you can carry? You can not be serious. No..they didn't have weight lifting dumbells in the game...but they do know what they can and can't lift. My character knows it can't lift a 500 pound boulder, he knows that while he can lift 150pound body with about 50 pounds of weight, it is extremely tiring, he knows that it is extremely uncomfortable to carry 100 pounds a long distance, and he knows that pushing around 50 pounds of dead weight is work...but not anything extrenuating.

When you are carrying something that you KNOW the weight of, (Not the numeric value of the weight, but how heavy it is) and then suddently hit with something that drains strength...you are GOING to feel the differance.

You are going to realize that you are more sickly, and getting tired too fast, compared to how you usually are. Perhaps not in a day, or even two days...but it will be realized by you within the week or so. Same with Dexterity, and Intelligence.

It's the subtle things I have trouble with...wisdom and Charisma. I don't really take note of how acute my sight is on a day to day basic...or how charismatic I am on a day to day basic...I do take note of how heavy things are, how sick I am on a monthly basis, and how hard a tarrain I am covering.

How does your character know he can lift a 500 pound boulder, or that the boulder is 500 pounds?

I can udnerstand smaller things being weighed, but the average thing probably doesn't take weight into consideration.

If you apply this to your character then what would be so hard to apply these things that also do not have a system of standards for measuring to the other stats?

WIS, you feel like you are applying les common sense than things, or other people are figuring things out quicker than you normally would.

That would mean either your "WIS" is going down, or there's up.

Your charisma in the normal sense would be determined by the reaction of others around you. Are they starting to be less receptive of you? Do people start shrieking at the sight of you?

You would recognize any changes to these types of things the same way level is. You gain a level by the other people's acceptance of you, and likewise through the same thing you can gauge peoples reactions to other things that you physically cannot tell otherwise.

So while you may be able to tell you feel weaker, or are performing physically less, you would use other peoples reactions to you to tell how charismatic you are or aren't compared to the last time you were around those people as well how you perform with the function of the WIS score.

I have really never seen a deficiency in stat score being roleplayed out when a loss of points occurred, to any way that would be continuous.

Fighter: I feel like I am just not performing as well as I used to after fighting that banshee
Cleric: Let me pray for any ailments within you being healed.

That would be about as far as I ever saw it in regards to gaining back lost stats due to a curse for example.

So otherwise beyond how other people are interacting with you, I don't know how you would know in game, other than the same way you would know in real life.

[Epinephrine]

Being drunk is like wisdom damage, at least that's what I'd guess. Without any pleasant buzz though, just the poor decision making and awareness.

[Ixahinon]

How does your character know he can lift a 500 pound boulder, or that the boulder is 500 pounds?

I can udnerstand smaller things being weighed, but the average thing probably doesn't take weight into consideration.

He doens't know the exact weight of the boulder. He just knows it is 'really ****ing heavy' and he can't carry it, or even budge it for that matter.

Just like he doens't know he is carrying 46.73 pounds of equipment on him, just just nows that right now, just as it has been for the past few months, the weight he is carrying is 'very easy.'

However, when he got blasted by a few Rays of Enfeeblement. He quickly found out that the weight that he has been carrying day in and day out (with acception to a few things he picked up here and there) has now gotten incredably heavy. He knows it's not because suddenly everyone around him got stronger...he knows it is something that affected him.

If you apply this to your character then what would be so hard to apply these things that also do not have a system of standards for measuring to the other stats?

WIS, you feel like you are applying les common sense than things, or other people are figuring things out quicker than you normally would.

That would mean either your "WIS" is going down, or there's up.

Finding out Wisdom damage in character is my problem in the first place, as well as Charisma. My character wouldn't monitor his charm, good lucks, force of personality, etc. Nor would he monitor his sight, hearing, common sense, and what not. But I suppose he would notice someone else's. I think someone else mentioned this.

[J.Gellert]

As an added bonus, losing Wisdom might mean you are now less likely to notice your other abilities have dropped!

"Wait... Should I be smarter than this?"

[Alleine]

Wisdom: You suddenly awake from a daydream to find that you are holding a troop of orcs at bay with a spatula wearing what appears to be a jetpack made of a keg of spirits and a wick.

Excuse me while I write this down for my next character.

[Quietus]

He doens't know the exact weight of the boulder. He just knows it is 'really ****ing heavy' and he can't carry it, or even budge it for that matter.

Just like he doens't know he is carrying 46.73 pounds of equipment on him, just just nows that right now, just as it has been for the past few months, the weight he is carrying is 'very easy.'

However, when he got blasted by a few Rays of Enfeeblement. He quickly found out that the weight that he has been carrying day in and day out (with acception to a few things he picked up here and there) has now gotten incredably heavy. He knows it's not because suddenly everyone around him got stronger...he knows it is something that affected him.

This. When you pack the exact same things in your backpack every day, it's unlikely the bell and the necklace of teeth you took off those last gnolls have added so much weight that you find the pack unbearable now.

Fighter : "I wonder why my pack got so heavy?"
Wizard : *Takes the pack, hefts it a couple times* "Seems fine to me."
Fighter : "Then why did I get weaker?"



As for Wisdom, you generally know what you can see at what distance. When you need to get ten feet closer for That One Inn's sign to be clear enough to read, you would probably ask yourself why. If you have to keep asking your friends to repeat themselves because your Listen checks are down, they will typically mention it.

Charisma, you would likely notice in the way other people respond to you. They wouldn't likely shy away or run screaming, barring extreme loss of Charisma, but you'd notice that the lady whose son you saved a couple weeks back keeps a bit of distance from you. Your friends would notice you pulling into your shell. And you'd possibly notice your appearance in the mirror and wonder when those dark circles and deep lines appeared on your face.

Also, it's worth noting that Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't stack with itself. Only the highest penalty applies.

Finding out Wisdom damage in character is my problem in the first place, as well as Charisma. My character wouldn't monitor his charm, good lucks, force of personality, etc. Nor would he monitor his sight, hearing, common sense, and what not. But I suppose he would notice someone else's. I think someone else mentioned this.

Whether you realize it or not, you do monitor your sight and hearing on a daily basis. When you've got a cold, you notice the slight changes in how you perceive sounds. If you were to put on someone else's glasses (assuming you wear your own), you'd know that things don't quite look the way they should. Charisma is more vague, and would be read much more in other people's reactions to him.

[JellyPooga]

On Charisma, it depends on the source of the charisma loss; some spells and effects inflict charisma loss because they've actually made you less attractive; Flensing, for example, inflicts Charisma damage 'cos it both inflicts psychological trauma and it makes you ugly (tattered flesh ain't pretty) and I'm pretty sure I've seen a disease (I forget where from; probably from an Undead creature) that inflicts Charisma damage because it rots your flesh or somesuch (stinking of rot ain't pretty neither).

With Cha/Wis damage/drain, it's not so much a matter of the character knowing that they've been hit for it, but the change in their personality and abilites should be noticable to others...for the physical stats and Intellignece it's a lot easier (I'm weaker, clumsier, etc.), but Wis/Cha should probably be noticed by the characters' companions before the character himself notices:

Wisdom: You become more reckless and hasty, less prone to sitting and thinking about a problem before trying to resolve it. You might be less inclined to listen to someone elses arguments or suggestions.

Charisma: More brash and offensive, perhaps, or you stumble over your words (maybe even to the extent of picking up a stammer temporarily). If you had a particularly high charisma that got damaged, then it might present as simply being less larger-than-life; you fade into the background instead of making that witty quip you would otherwise, you step back instead of taking charge.