How to beat a druid? 3.5E

[Mindleshank]

How can you beat a druid when they can wild shape, cast really powerful spells, and lets not forget about that bloody animal companion?

[PId6]

Higher level druid.

[Starscream]

Throw a stick and recite the magical incantation "Whosagoodboyden?"

[Crazy Scot]

A wizard with careful spell selection?

[Leon]

a rolled up news paper and a firm commanding voice

[sofawall]

This question is why the Druid (and cleric, for much the same reasons) are considered to be, overall, the most powerful classes in D&D. Sure, Weezard has all his Time Stop and whatnot, but Clerics can get it through domains, and Druids just don't care. They turn into a bear and rip your face off.

[Mindleshank]

So am i right in saying at eighth level druids are the best class for pvp? But i don't see how a druid is the only answer to a druid.

[Mindleshank]

This question is why the Druid (and cleric, for much the same reasons) are considered to be, overall, the most powerful classes in D&D. Sure, Weezard has all his Time Stop and whatnot, but Clerics can get it through domains, and Druids just don't care. They turn into a bear and rip your face off.

Acutally its for a Pvp. I say they can be beaten but by any .. hpmh .. martial class?

[Doc Roc]

A martial gish build like Ruby Shadow can probably handle a druid. But that's not a class anymore. That's a beautiful monster.

[Goatman_Ted]

Acutally its for a Pvp. I say they can be beaten but by any .. hpmh .. martial class?

You're going to have to be more specific on what 'martial class' means.

[Frosty]

Hmm...get yourself a ring of Freedom of Movement, and build an Ubercharger who also tries to pimp out Initiative?

[Mindleshank]

You're going to have to be more specific on what 'martial class' means.

Well i mean can a martial class beat a druid martial class being a rouge or ranger? I just want to beat this powerful druid that is in our pvp i saw what he can do today and i don't know if he can even be beaten in straight combat.

[Doc Roc]

Oh yes, play a rogue or a ranger, and ignore every bit of advice we've offered up.

:: tiredly rolls eyes ::

[chiasaur11]

Well, there's always...

Pun Pun.

But really, you pull that, even arena fights fall apart. It's bringing a nuke to a knife fight.

No, scratch that. It's bringing a nuke to a poker tournament. Technically, you can claim victory on a technicality, but no one is a winner.

[Ridureyu]

Pray really hard to Thor.

[Mindleshank]

Well, there's always...

Pun Pun.

But really, you pull that, even arena fights fall apart. It's bringing a nuke to a knife fight.

No, scratch that. It's bringing a nuke to a poker tournament. Technically, you can claim victory on a technicality, but no one is a winner.

Sorry, Pun Pun?

[Tempest Fennac]

What do Ruby Shadows do? Pun Pun is a Kobold Commoner who became a diety who could do anything using a Candle on Invocation and a particular SLA from the summoned creature. In a PvP game, would Tome of Battle classes be able to hold their own against a Druid if there wasn't a companion?

[Mindleshank]

What about poison?

[mostlyharmful]

Druid's immune from level 9.

If you want a rogue you could try UMD with a basic wizard set of tactics, resilient sphere to seperate him from AC, knobble AC then hide and snipe or ray of exhaustion/ray of exhaustion/ray of enfeeblement hilarity.

[Aquillion]

We'll need more details about the druid, the situation you're talking about facing them in, what exactly you mean by "beating" them, and so on.

But in general, druids are probably the hardest class to beat reliably, absent the really absurdly-optimized wizards who know you're coming before you decided you were etc etc.

The problem with druids is that they just have so many powerful abilities. Their spellcasting isn't as powerful as a wizard's, but it is still very versatile and has most of the most important things in it. Then they can also Wild Shape and fight you in melee, and they have an animal companion that is going to be wailing on you the whole time you fight them unless you have a way to deal with it... which is a particularly big advantage in 1v1 pvp fights, since it means they get more out of buffs and save-or-sucks than other casting classes. Which, incidentally, is what their spell list is focused on (that, and summoning even more things.)

On top of all this, they have armor and d8 hps, so you can't reliably beat them fast even if you manage to get them with their pants down; they have 3/4 BAB, so they can do all right in a grapple and such even if you catch them outside of Wild Shape (and can slaughter just about anyone when they are in Wild Shape -- and unlike casting, you can't prevent them from wild shaping with a grapple), and they have a bunch of other, less important class features on top of this. (Like the above post about poison shows.)

Can they be beaten? Sure. But how you do it depends heavily on the situation and what abilities you want to use yourself -- you can't just make a "druid-killer" build the way some people try to make a "wizard-killer" build (with varying success even there.) Druid abilities are too broad to make one reliable "druid-killing" formula.

What you want to do depends heavily on the strategy the druid is using. But there are still some things you will always want to have against a druid...

One thing worth pointing out is Protection from Evil or Protection from Good. Note that either of those will protect you from neutral summons that use natural attacks (which are the nastiest things they can summon.) Very important against a summoning druid. It won't save you from their animal companion or their own Wild Shaped self, or when they summon things that use SLAs or ranged attacks (and yes, there are some things like that on the SNA list), but it's a start, and it's nice to shut down at least part of the druid's strategy with one low-level spell. You can get potions of these if you're not a caster.

Also, Freedom of Movement, either through the spell or a ring. This will save you if the druid decides to go for a grapple, and blocks several nasty spells as well.

If we're talking really high-level fights, and you're a high-level wizard, Disjunction is always nice for removing their buffs. Druids are probably one of the classes least affected by Disjunction -- since it only ends magical effects as Dispel Magic does, it doesn't remove summons or end wild shape. Druids are also much less dependent on gear than other classes. And, of course, it doesn't make their animal companion vanish (although it might make it suck when all its bonuses and items disappear.) Either way, though, being disjoined still hurts them badly.

[ghost_warlock]

Mebbe an egoist with metamorphosis, fission, a psicrystal, and the Metamorphic Transfer feat. Fighting fire with napalm.

Oh, and being able to fly usually negates an animal companion.

[Doc Roc]

The ruby shadow is a tier 1.5 CO build by wolfie-kun. Link incoming.

It's really only inferior to some of the hardcore CO stuff that borders on TO. I mean, I wouldn't go after PXY's stuff with it, or try to face down a real TO build, but it can break face like little else.

Here is my take.

If you play a ruby reaver, I'd love to hear about it. They never really got taken out and about, which made me really sad, frankly.

[Salt_Crow]

If you could somehow get Antimagic Field around you (hopefully without affecting you) then it'd be a fair game really. No wild shape, no buffs and no offensive spells (unless instantaneous conjuration)- bane of all spellcasters ;)

AMF can be gotten with an item (I think there's an item granting AMF 1/day) or by hiring a caster to cast it for you (probably making you immune to that AMF by one of various methods).


Edit: Once you've got AMF around and close into melee with the druid then you should be fine. If you can't win with the even playing field, you'd probably need a better build XD

[Doc Roc]

Like a... oh **** it.

[JellyPooga]

Would an assassin-build work against a Druid? Not literally the Assassin PrC, but a build that focuses of stealth and the 1-hit-kill. As far as I can reckon, it's easier to hide and sneak than it is to detect and all the nifty spells and wild shapes and summoned allies can't protect you from something you can't see coming.

I'd imagine a Shadow Dancer build might work well if you can pump the Shadow Companion somehow...have it hide in the floor and Strength Drain the Druid to death.

[Aquillion]

Would an assassin-build work against a Druid? Not literally the Assassin PrC, but a build that focuses of stealth and the 1-hit-kill. As far as I can reckon, it's easier to hide and sneak than it is to detect and all the nifty spells and wild shapes and summoned allies can't protect you from something you can't see coming.

I'd imagine a Shadow Dancer build might work well if you can pump the Shadow Companion somehow...have it hide in the floor and Strength Drain the Druid to death.

Well, we have to ask how optimized the druid is, first. Staying in wild shape all the time is not totally unheard of (it's far more common than most of the strategies that are taken for granted in an 'optimized wizard' build, say.)

But even aside from that, 1-hit KOing a druid is hard. Their animal companion is going to be with them most of the time. They still have d8 hp and armor... and you can't prevent them from wild shaping, short of trapping them in an AMF (and then you still have their companion to deal with, while trying to keep the druid from leaving the field.)

On top of this, sneaking up on a druid is not so easy. Many animal companions have both scent and high spot/listen checks. And druids tend to have high wis, and have spot and listen as class abilities (plus 4 skill points per level), and, when wild shaped, may have both scent and natural bonuses to spot and listen. You have to pass the spot and listen checks of both the druid and their animal companion, and hope/ensure that neither can scent you. Not so easy.

A strength drain ambush might work if the druid isn't wild shaped all the time, though, since many druids dump strength on account of it not mattering when you're wild shaped (of course, the druids who do that are also the ones most likely to be wild shaped all the time...) But you'd have to get the druid in one turn, generally, or they can just wild shape into something really strong or something that flies or whatever, and you're screwed.

Also, druids can cast Death Ward, and it's a pretty popular spell given the range of extremely nasty stuff it protects against. So if they get a chance to act, they'll probably cast that.

[olentu]

Would an assassin-build work against a Druid? Not literally the Assassin PrC, but a build that focuses of stealth and the 1-hit-kill. As far as I can reckon, it's easier to hide and sneak than it is to detect and all the nifty spells and wild shapes and summoned allies can't protect you from something you can't see coming.

I'd imagine a Shadow Dancer build might work well if you can pump the Shadow Companion somehow...have it hide in the floor and Strength Drain the Druid to death.

Well the shadow trick can be beaten if the druid happens to have sheltered vitality prepared.

Also I think the druid gets a spell that gives 60 foot blindsight if not possibly a wildshape form so one would need darkstalker and depending on the druid they might get mindsight.

So it would really depend on the spells the druid has prepared.

[Ravens_cry]

Sorry, Pun Pun?

The Uber Build, The Breaker, That Which Shalt Not Be Done, The God of Cheese, (and Everything else) Ultimate One, The Monster of RAW, Munchkin Special, The Reason God Made DM's, Chuck Norris Bane, and Mr. Rogers's Nightmare.
His Power is Infinite, His Reach More So.
Read on Here, Young Acolyte And Tremble at His Might

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At level 8, a Pixie Warlock with Flyby Attack could give a Druid a run for his money.


Human Wizard 8, Fighter bonus feat variant (UA), Necromancy specialist, Skeletal Minion variant (UA). Improved Initiative (W1), Split Ray (CA) (H), Sanctum Spell (CA) (1), Ocular Spell (LoM) (3), Weapon Focus: Ray (W5), Arcane Thesis: Enervation (6) (take it at 6th for a 3rd level spell and retrain it to enervation at 7th if necessary). Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize, Ring of Sustenance.

Prior to combat, cast two Ocular (+2) Sanctum (+0) Maximized (+0) Split (+2) Enervations (4th), it goes up to 8th and Arcane Thesis reduces it back to 4th for four metamagic feats. Since it's cast outside your sanctum, it gets reverse-Heightened by one level to a 3rd level spell, thus qualifying it for use with a Lesser Metamagic Rod. After setting that up rest for two hours and prepare your spells.

Use Nerveskitter for an additional +5 initiative, first round spend a full-round action to release your rays. You shoot four rays, which may target the same or separate creatures within 30 feet of each other. Each ray deals four negative levels, so two will one-shot an 8th level character; two more should one-shot an animal companion. Your skeletal minion can get in the way (after you fire the rays) so any survivors can't charge you, give it a tower shield and have it use total cover. Second round cast a Sanctum, Split, Maximized Enervation at anything that survived.

[Doc Roc]

I myself am a proponent of the Neo-Terminators as the ultimate build, but Pun-Pun gets serious props. Monty, Pun-Pun's grown-up cousin, is even cooler.

Please, please, please at least read the ruby shadow build if you read nothing else I link to for the next month and a half.