Lich Question

[Brom]

I am rolling up a Lich as a character for a game. As Undead, he has a constitution score of zero. Does this mean he subtracts 5 HP from all HD rolls and has a -5 penalty to Concentration as well as having a -5 to Fortitude?

EDIT:

Another question: This Lich I am rolling up, he is a servant of Wee Jas, a Goddess of Death and Magic. In his order, the idea is that he is a sacred keeper of lore and a defender of the temple, as well as a seeker of magic. Wee Jas has given him the persistence of death and the ability of the living. Is it possible for him to have a neutral alignment, then, or are all Lich's evil by default? If so, can someone quote and list a page and book as the source to show where it says that Lich's are evil?

[Kylarra]

Undead creatures have no CON score, which is different from having a CON of 0.

Traits

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* No Constitution score.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
* Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
* Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
* Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
* Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
* Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
* Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
* Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

[Brom]

So do I add and subtract nothing from hit points rolled and do likewise for Fortitude saves?

[Telonius]

Regarding hit points, it's a flat d12. No bonus or penalty added.

(Sigh. Even when it's useful, poor d12 is alone).

It's immune to things that require fort saves. If it's an effect that also affects objects, treat the Lich as an object of the appropriate size (medium, I'm guessing).

[DamnedIrishman]

* Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

So, can you destroy a lich by resurrecting it then killing it?

I know resurrection doesn't work if the creature is unwilling to return, but does this count with undead? After all, they're already on the material plane rather in one of the higher or lower planes.

[JeenLeen]

So do I add and subtract nothing from hit points rolled and do likewise for Fortitude saves?

Correct. He doesn't have a Constitution of 0; he has no Constitution (usually denoted as a dash '-'). Unless noted otherwise (such as where Charisma is used instead of Con), you have a '0' modifier. So no change to HP and no plus or minus to Fort saves.

Edit: ah; post ninja'd.

[Brom]

Thanks for the good and timely help!

[Kylarra]

Note that you're also immune to most things that require a fort save unless they target objects or are "harmless".

So, can you destroy a lich by resurrecting it then killing it?

I know resurrection doesn't work if the creature is unwilling to return, but does this count with undead? After all, they're already on the material plane rather in one of the higher or lower planes.

No, you'd have to destroy the lich before resurrecting.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

[kamikasei]

So, can you destroy a lich by resurrecting it then killing it?

No. That means that you can kill an undead creature and raise the remains, but the result will be the original living creature, not the undead creature restored to unlife. Even true resurrection requires that an undead creature first be destroyed before the person from whom it was made can be resurrected, and it doesn't work on undead.

You can't use resurrection on a still-active undead to turn it in to its living predecessor.

[Eldariel]

You can actually read up on what exactly "Con -" means here: Nonability

Most crucially, nonability has the modifier +0, not -5. This is the reason you don't take penalties to your HD. Same goes for saves.

[Swooper]

For future reference, stuff like this should probably go into the "Simple Questions by RAW" thread.

[Devils_Advocate]

You can't use resurrection on a still-active undead to turn it in to its living predecessor.

That appears to be the intent. That section explaining the Undead type is just worded poorly. It should say "Resurrection and true resurrection can affect formerly undead creatures creatures that were undead prior to becoming dead."

Another question: This Lich I am rolling up, he is a servant of Wee Jas, a Goddess of Death and Magic. In his order, the idea is that he is a sacred keeper of lore and a defender of the temple, as well as a seeker of magic. Wee Jas has given him the persistence of death and the ability of the living. Is it possible for him to have a neutral alignment, then, or are all Lich's evil by default? If so, can someone quote and list a page and book as the source to show where it says that Lich's are evil?

"The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can only be undertaken by a willing character" says page 168 of the Monster Manual.

The rules are inconsistent about whether necromancy, negative energy, and undeath are somehow evil, however. Certainly they don't describe what's evil about them, if they are. Some parts of the rules are just contradictory. Either zombies are mindless automatons who act only as their masters instruct them, and are thus Neutral, or they actively seek to harm other beings, and are thus Evil. They cannot be both.

Wee Jas is just one more example of this. She promotes necromancy and the creation of undead, and doesn't display any altruistic traits that I'm aware of. So if necromancy is evil, she should be evil.

Short answer: Ask your DM.

If this guy got lichdom as a gift from his goddess instead of through a ritual, he might not have done evil thingies that are normally required. He also might not have a phylactery, which might not be a bad thing if it gets counted against your character's wealth. (Again, ask your DM.)

Edit: To make an undead character without Evil alignment, a level adjustment, and other various baggage, check out the Necropolitan template in Libris Mortis.

[Logalmier]

Libris Mortis has a rule variant for a 'good lich' if you have it. It's pretty much the same as a regular lich, only you're good and can turn undead.

[Roupe]

Helm of opposite alignment. Should result in a good Lich.

unless its ruled as mind affecting making the Lich immune to it.

[Optimystik]

Sanctify the Wicked (BoED), the "good version" of Soul Bind, turns any evildoer good-aligned regardless of creature type. Thus you can have good mindflayers, good beholders. good red dragons etc. Just attach the Sanctified template to your lich and said he underwent the process at some point.

[Krrth]

Check out the Baelnorns. They are good liches, with the caveat that they cannot create a phylactery. If they die, they are gone.

[Optimystik]

Check out the Baelnorns. They are good liches, with the caveat that they cannot create a phylactery. If they die, they are gone.

You mean destroyed... they're already dead >_>

[Krrth]

You mean destroyed... they're already dead >_>

Actually, as I remember (and I admit it's been a while), they're kinda.....iffy on being dead. If you kill them, a bunch have set up contingent clones that the soul then inhabits....as a baelnorn. They also can't be controlled by an evil cleric (but can be turned by one!)