The best schools of magic?

[karnalsyn]

Thought I'd toss out a fun little opinion thread on the topic of arcane magic schools.

Curious which schools are either your favorite, or that you feel are without a doubt THE best school for an arcane spell caster.

[Keld Denar]

Conjouration

then Conjouration

then Conjouration

then Conjouration

then Transmutation










then Illusion (unless you are a Shadowcraft Mage)

then everything else

[mikej]

Conjuration...

edit: well if I need to explain further. It's basically the all purpose school. Lots of usefull spells at each level, always kept Conjuration. Other schools like Enchantment aren't as versatile. Transmutation takes a solid second, while Necromancy is third.

[karnalsyn]

Really? Conjuration?

What about Conjuration has you so sure? :)

[Deepblue706]

Transmutation is pretty badass, since you can essentially always use it when you're in a party.

Although, Conjuration pretty much works whenever, party or not.

[Yuki Akuma]

Conjuration can do anything.

It's better at blasting than Evocation, better at defence than Abjuration and better at hordes of minions (even undead ones) than Necromancy. And it can do a bunch of other things besides, and has some of the best control spells in the game.

If you're going to go Focused Specialist, make your speciality Conjuration.

[JeenLeen]

I would say Conjuration or Illusion.

Evocation is considered weak because, at high levels, it mostly only damages. The 'good' high level spells are save-or-dies or spells that make it effectively like a save-or-die. Also, Illusion can imitate Evocation (and Conjuration for that matter) with Shadow Evocation (and Shadow Conjuration).

Conjuration contains utility spells as well as save-or-dies. Transmutation has great buffs, debuffs, and save-or-dies. Illusion can really mess up a foe and imitate other schools. Enchantment can recruit enemies. Necromancy is the key debuff and has some good (albeit evil) damage spells.
I'll leave it to people more experienced witih spellcasting to say more.

Also, Player's Handbook II has an awesome alternative class feature for conjuration specialist wizards, as well. The most powerful wizard types I've seen built seem to always be Conjuration specialists, banning Evocation and usually Enchantment.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In order:
Conjuration: Do anything, with the best ACFs and a large number of powerful-but-not-quite-broken spells
Transmutation: Do almost anything, with a good mix of powerful spells, but some of it's best ones are insta-banned a lot of the time, which hurts.
Illusion: The best defenses in the game, and some extremely versatile spells.
Abjuration: some vital spells(dispel), some good spells, but not as Uber.
Necromancy: Great debufs, some utility, good variety. Moe powerful than Abj IMHO, but Abj is vital in a way Necro isn't.
Enchantment: Does one thing, does it well, and is useless against whole types and subtypes.
Evocation: Does one thing, does it poorly, is junk against most enemies, and other schools sing 'Anything you can do'.

Divination I don't really like, so I'm not as sure about where it goes. Behind Illusion, and over Enchantment, but...I just don't know it enough to rate it.

[lsfreak]

Conjuration has everything. Save-of-suck, save-or-lose, teleportation, a ton of utility spells (grease comes to mind), better single-target damage than evocation, and some truly amazing battlefield control (freezing fog is hilarity).

Transmutation has pretty much everything that Conjuration didn't cover. Excellent buffs, excellent debuffs.

Illusion is your defense school. Blur, invisibility, major image, mirror image.

Then comes abjuration and necromancy. Necromancy is the debuffing king, but a lot of stuff becomes immune to it at high levels. Abjuration is nice, but is better covered by a cleric.

Enchantment is mostly covered by illusion and/or necromancy. Evocation sucks hard if you're trying to be an arcanist, but is fine if you're willing to just be the archer.

Divination is extremely powerful used well. It generally doesn't get ranked with the others since you can't ban it. Has all kinds of stuff to make other stuff better.

[ericgrau]

Really? Conjuration?

What about Conjuration has you so sure? :)

This is how you can tell someone is new to these boards.

IMO conjuration is over-rated in these boards but still very nice. I'd say abjuration and divination are the weak ones. Everything else has its use somewhere, but conjuration and evocation have the flashy battle spells. Illusion, necromancy and enchantment are fairly niche in their applications. Transmutation is nice because it has a handful of uber all-star spells that are hard to give up, but it also has some ok spells and a couple of poor spells.

A lot of people here say evocation is worthless because you can use splatbooks to partly replace it with conjuration.

If you're looking to build a mage, then IMO try any of the 5 schools mentioned and play something different from what your group is used to to keep it interesting. If that means you try conjuration, you'll get a billion tips from these boards. Just be aware if you do one of the 3 niche schools you'll probably want some backup spells to avoid being shut down half the time. Mix in the handful of uber transmutations whatever your style, perhaps some of the ok ones too. Don't ignore abjuration and divination though, just give them a lower priority or use scrolls or etc.

[Starscream]

Yeah, Conjuration and Transmutation are the most powerful schools.

But I maintain that Illusion is by far the most fun.

[JellyPooga]

Necromancy. Because if you're going to cast spells then you might as well do it properly; i.e. as creepy evil wizard with gaunt flesh and a cowled robe, with a skull topped staff and undead minions. And nothing says "I'm a powerful mage" better than getting surrounded by enemies, saying a short phrase which drains the very life essence from your foe, healing yourself in the process and turning said foe (who should now be dead) into a mindless rotting slave...

[karnalsyn]

@ericgrau

New to the forums?
Yes.

Looking to build a mage and sap ideas off others?
No.


Just bored at work and looking to spark a topic on a class in the game that I enjoy. :)

The reply you quoted of mine was mainly just to help expand the discussion further from just a one word answer.

[ericgrau]

Ah, well if you're looking for discussion on this kind of topic you'll get a lot of that. Have fun.

[lsfreak]

Necromancy. Because if you're going to cast spells then you might as well do it properly; i.e. as creepy evil wizard with gaunt flesh and a cowled robe, with a skull topped staff and undead minions. And nothing says "I'm a powerful mage" better than getting surrounded by enemies, saying a short phrase which drains the very life essence from your foe, healing yourself in the process and turning said foe (who should now be dead) into a mindless rotting slave...

The biggest problem with necromancy as the most powerful is that so much is immune to its effects at high levels. I won't deny it's fun though.

The thing about Conj is that it just has so much. If you want to do it, Conj can probably do it. Maybe not the way you were thinking, but it can do it.

I've always likes Enchantment, slowly building up your own personal army via suggestion and dominate person (without resorting to diplomancy). But the fact that so much is immune to it and that a single spell renders the whole school useless really hurts.

[Optimystik]

I would rank evocation ahead of enchantment, personally. Enchantment is all but useless at high levels with all the mind-affecting spells it has. At least with evocation you can keep blasting.

You know it's bad when a 9th-level Enchantment spell can be stopped cold by a level 1 Abjuration!

[J.Gellert]

Conjuration is the 'best' because it is the most versatile.

Necromancy is second-best because it too is versatile. Once you are finished with your enemies, only Constructs will be left standing - but your dead minions can deal with them. Of course, animating dead minions is not as simple as conjuring them so Conjuration is 'faster'.

I'd say Transmutation and Illusion fight for the third place. Illusion can be great depending on the foe and the circumstances, but it doesn't provide tangible effects. Transmutation is great for some mages, and for your party members, but it's not as good as Conjuration or Necromancy.

Bonus points go to Necromancy because it's the school that gets you eternal life* - and outside the battlefield, you have to admit that it matters.

*Yes, I know that you can be a lich without a single necromantic spell, but just roll with it...

[Mr. Mud]

Hmm okay, then what two schools should I ban (4e), if I don't go Divination? I'm thinking... Evocation, and maybe... _________*?

*Where I'm pretty much lost

[Eldariel]

Transmutation and Conjuration are the best, will Illusion being slightly behind.

Transmutation has:
-Awesome buffs (Haste, Polymorph-line, Enlarge Person, all Flight-related spells, etc.)
-Fort Save-or-X spells (Slow, Baleful Polymorph, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, etc.)
-Battlefield morphing spells (Stone Shape, Move Earth, Control Weather, Control Water, Disintegrate, etc.)
-Screwing with Time (Time Stop, Haste, etc.)
-Mobility spells (Flight of all forms, Etherealness of all forms, etc.)
-Best level 9 spells in the business (Time Stop & Shapechange; only Gate and Disjunction are really in the same league in Core)
-Reverse Gravity

Conjuration has:
-Reflex Save-or-X (Grease, Web, etc.)
-Other Save-or-X (Glitterdust, Plane Shift, etc.)
-Battlefield control (Wall of Stone, Solid Fog, etc.)
-Direct Offense (Melf's, Acid Fog, etc. - gets much better outside Core)
-Teleportation; best movement in the game
-Summons (that can hit whatever you're missing; they can grant you an access to a nice bunch of spell-likes)
-Planar Binding (an extra character for much of the time, one with a crapton of awesome abilities)
-Maze

Illusion has:
-Best defenses in the game (Mirror Image, Displacement, Greater Invisibility, etc.)
-Mobility (Phantom Steed, Shadow Walk, etc.)
-Will Save-or-X (Color Spray mostly; Shadow X spells kinda apply too)
-Shadow Evocation/Conjuration (Shadow Evocation in particular can replicate a ****ton of what the whole school does; only Greater is any good for offense though - free Force Cages that work 60% of the time are fairly good)
-Project Image, Simulacrum, etc. - extra actions, extra characters, means to operate through another object and to see behind the corners without risking yourself, etc. A lot of goodness, overall.
-X Image-line; your imagination is the limit to what you can do with these.


All of these schools provide you with defense and varied offense; Illusion is defensively stronger while Conjuration is offensively stronger. All of these schools give you mobility, all of them give you some tools for protecting yourself, together they allow you to cover all 3 of opponent's saves and target whichever is the weakest.

Whenever the opponent is immune to your spells, you can morph the environment instead, or summon some mediums to do the ugly stuff for you. All of them also have some great No Save-X spells.


Out of the other schools, the most irreplaceables are Divination and Abjuration. Abjuration is the only school that enables directly attacking magic. A caster without Dispel Magic is eventually going to run into unbeatable opposition. Of course, in party, another party member can cover that area.

So dropping Abjuration with another party member capable of handling the area is ok; there's stuff like Protection from Evil, Mind Blank and Disjunction that just kick ass, but as long as you can access Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic, you'll be ok.

As for Divination, it's completely unique. Nothing else allows locating things you really need to find. There are practically no other ways of beating certain forms of illusions. There are no other ways to figure out what's going to happen tomorrow, which spells to prepare and so on. Even reading magic is a divination, as is seeing magical auras, detecting spells, etc. Divination just has no overlap whatsoever with the other schools.


For the worst:

Enchantment is probably the worst school, although Charm-line definitely has social uses, something other spells don't do as well (Transmutation and Illusion both have some such uses though). Conjuration summons can handle that too. Offensively enchantment is all mind-affecting Will-save targeting (except for Irresistible Dance, but it's on such a high level that Mind Blank is around with its 24 hour duration by then). Buffs are all morale-bonuses. Overall, it's the most redundant school.

Necromancy and Evocation are funny. They pretty much obsolete each other. In Core, you can ban one but not the other. They both do offense, a bit differently (Necromancy has more debuffs, while Evocation has more area-of-effect magic).

Both have a few utility spells you really want (False Life, Clone, Contingency, Wall of Force, etc.) but Shadow Evocation can sorta maybe replicate the Evocation-parts. Walls aren't unique either, and Forcecage is better Shadow Evocationed anyways because then you don't need the damn material component.


This is why Evocation is generally the first to go. Out-of-core you can mayhap mimic Necromancy enough to be able to let it go, but all the Str-drain, level-drain and such is just that good (enables disabling many kinds of opponents with a mere touch attack). Oh, and Necromancy has the "make an army"-aspect too, although that's more seldom usable.


For a best-to-worst listing, I'd go:
1. Conjuration
1. Transmutation
3. Illusion
4. Divination
5. Abjuration
6. Necromancy
7. Evocation
8. Enchantment

[Morty]

It should be noted though, that no matter what you ban or specialize in, your character will still be viable and competent. Just to a varying degree depending on your choices.

[karnalsyn]

I'm currently playing an illusionist in 3.5 and having a blast, its been pretty fun.

Definitely a good break from the normal evoker wizards that I tend to play.

Conj is actually something I've not yet dabbled in really. I've always associated it with just their summon monster spells. And because I feel the druids summons are better, and we always have a druid in the party....I've yet to see the need to actually play a conjurer.

However, I've been researching it more lately and it is becoming more and more appealing.

Eventually I'd like to play a wiz of each specific school to really get a feel for them. Up until recently I've always played a generic wiz, which has basically morphed into en evoker just due to my most commonly chosen spells. So I think playing more specialist wizards will give me a better appreciation for the other schools in time. Thus my new illusionist :)

[Eldariel]

You might want to read Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman and Treantmonk's Being God; both go rather indepth specifically on Wizard's spells and their evaluation.

[JellyPooga]

The biggest problem with necromancy as the most powerful is that so much is immune to its effects at high levels. I won't deny it's fun though.

I never said it was the most powerful, per se, just that it says it best...

[Optimystik]

Conjuration has:
-Reflex Save-or-X (Grease, Web, etc.)
-Other Save-or-X (Glitterdust, Plane Shift, etc.)
-Battlefield control (Wall of Stone, Solid Fog, etc.)
-Direct Offense (Melf's, Acid Fog, etc. - gets much better outside Core)
-Teleportation; best movement in the game
-Summons (that can hit whatever you're missing; they can grant you an access to a nice bunch of spell-likes)
-Planar Binding (an extra character for much of the time, one with a crapton of awesome abilities)
-Maze

You forgot orbs: Make your touch attack and you can ignore saves, SR, and even ANTI-MAGIC!

And don't get me started on Gate...

[karnalsyn]

You might want to read Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman

I've only just started to skim the surface of this one and am having a blast reading it. Thanks for the tip :)

[Eldariel]

You forgot orbs: Make your touch attack and you can ignore saves, SR, and even ANTI-MAGIC!

And don't get me started on Gate...

They fall under the Direct Offense-part. I just wanted to stick to Core-options for the spells I'm listing.

I've only just started to skim the surface of this one and am having a blast reading it. Thanks for the tip :)

Glad you like it. Really, it's awesome that people have bothered to make such an effort, basically assessing all the spells in the game so people don't need to have to memorize them all by heart.

[AslanCross]

My definition of "best" is "can do the most," which of course allows the wizard to do his archetypical job of providing solutions to the party.
Conjuration can do the most, followed by Transmutation, then Illusion. All the other schools are highly specialized, with Evocation being the most specialized.
Evocation still is not without its gems, though: wall of force, scorching ray, fireball. Sure, people knock on fireball all the time, but I've always liked it for being an iconic. Lightning bolt sadly lost its awesomeness through the editions.

[mostlyharmful]

Dependant on the DM but Divination is my favourite. Knowledge equals power and there's some fantastic stuff you can pull from the comfort of your armchair that'll utterly change your campaign and world...

If the DM can't handle it then Conj for the reasons mentioned but to me a Wizard should be all about the endless questions and answers and insights and scryings and snappy answers (because you've been ready for it for a month)...

[Emy]

Transmutation has:
-Awesome buffs (Haste, Polymorph-line, Enlarge Person, all Flight-related spells, etc.)
-Fort Save-or-X spells (Slow, Baleful Polymorph, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, etc.)
-Battlefield morphing spells (Stone Shape, Move Earth, Control Weather, Control Water, Disintegrate, etc.)
-Mobility spells (Flight of all forms, Etherealness of all forms, etc.)
-Best level 9 spells in the business (Time Stop & Shapechange)
-Reverse Gravity

Additionally:

-"Wizard goes first" spells (Nerveskitter at low levels, Celerity at higher levels. Some overlap with Divination here, though they complement each other nicely)

oh you were sticking to core spells. I see.

[Eldariel]

Additionally:

-"Wizard goes first" spells (Nerveskitter at low levels, Celerity at higher levels. Some overlap with Divination here, though they complement each other nicely)

oh you were sticking to core spells. I see.

If I just say "Temporal Manipulation", I'll cover all Core and non-Core spells of that type from the school. Ok, "Temporal Manipulation" added to Transmutation.

Heh, it's actually the only real overlap Divination has (although Divination with its +25 insight bonuses, immunity to flat-footedness and what not does it better), those "going first"-spells.